The Demise of disc formats

[Soundfield]

Whatever works for you I guess. Personally I can’t be bothered with all the faffing about with computers and ripping and archiving and cataloguing. It doesn’t interest me at all, and I can’t see the point. I’ve thousands of CD’s and buy several more every month, I don’t see any decline in the release of CD’s in the classical music sphere. My CD’s are only vaguely organised by genre but I can fairly quickly find anything I want. If I don’t, then I often stumble across something I haven’t listened to in years and play that instead! It’s like wandering through a library – but one I’ve curated, so there’s nothing I don’t like on the shelves! In addition to ‘the library’ I have a pile of frequently played discs on one side of the player and another on the other side of those new discs that have yet to come out of their shrink wrap. I have managed with not cleaning any disc ever by simply not touching the surface of a disc. I listen to symphonies and operas so I don’t play individual ‘songs’ so don’t have to leap up and down every three minutes to change anything. No work to do, no software to battle, no paranoia over memory media failures. Like me, all very simple.

 

[ubertrout]

Whatever works for you I guess. Personally I can’t be bothered with all the faffing about with computers and ripping and archiving and cataloguing. It doesn’t interest me at all, and I can’t see the point. I’ve thousands of CD’s and buy several more every month, I don’t see any decline in the release of CD’s in the classical music sphere. My CD’s are only vaguely organised by genre but I can fairly quickly find anything I want. If I don’t, then I often stumble across something I haven’t listened to in years and play that instead! It’s like wandering through a library – but one I’ve curated, so there’s nothing I don’t like on the shelves! In addition to ‘the library’ I have a pile of frequently played discs on one side of the player and another on the other side of those new discs that have yet to come out of their shrink wrap. I have managed with not cleaning any disc ever by simply not touching the surface of a disc. I listen to symphonies and operas so I don’t play individual ‘songs’ so don’t have to leap up and down every three minutes to change anything. No work to do, no software to battle, no paranoia over memory media failures. Like me, all very simple.

I'm in the same place, but that's why I went streaming for listening at my desk or on the go / at work. Someone else has done the work already. A lot of people with large disc collections seem to make the ripping and tagging their second job. After selling off the CDs I had to keep repertoire handy, I have the CDs that are important to me and/or aren't on streaming, a few megaboxes, and my SACD collection. In practice it's more music than ever.

 

[ar surround]

Whatever works for you I guess. Personally I can’t be bothered with all the faffing about with computers and ripping and archiving and cataloguing. It doesn’t interest me at all, and I can’t see the point. I’ve thousands of CD’s and buy several more every month, I don’t see any decline in the release of CD’s in the classical music sphere. My CD’s are only vaguely organised by genre but I can fairly quickly find anything I want. If I don’t, then I often stumble across something I haven’t listened to in years and play that instead! It’s like wandering through a library – but one I’ve curated, so there’s nothing I don’t like on the shelves! In addition to ‘the library’ I have a pile of frequently played discs on one side of the player and another on the other side of those new discs that have yet to come out of their shrink wrap. I have managed with not cleaning any disc ever by simply not touching the surface of a disc. I listen to symphonies and operas so I don’t play individual ‘songs’ so don’t have to leap up and down every three minutes to change anything. No work to do, no software to battle, no paranoia over memory media failures. Like me, all very simple.

Funny that you mention that about symphonies and operas. While I rip my popular music discs, I don't rip any classical titles just for the reason you noted...I don't play individual "songs" but rather whole works.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Funny that you mention that about symphonies and operas. While I rip my popular music discs, I don't rip any classical titles just for the reason you noted...I don't play individual "songs" but rather whole works.

It makes a lot more sense for classical. I agree. But you guys are missing the mark about the difficulty involved and the amount of time required,

So, you file guys like to just sit back in a chair and click, missing out on much needed exercise as we grow older. I hope your legs keep working.

The ship has already sailed on my legs. They have a constant friend now. Hes called Aurthur Ritis, Not having to get up is a god send.

(heaven forbid I had to do that in my home theater where my primary chair has motorized recline as it would take forever and put a lot of wear on the motor).

I have HT seats in my bedroom (there is a stereo system there that uses the same NAS as the surround rig). I want another HT seat setup for my listening room. The joke around here is, if you have your feet up and a fire breaks out, youre gonna die in the flames before you can get the thing retracted.

 

[MagnumX]

So, you file guys like to just sit back in a chair and click, missing out on much needed exercise as we grow older. I hope your legs keep working.

Doug

I do that all day at work. Besides, a person has to get up to take a leak (or as my grand pappy used to say, to see a man about a horse). I'm not interested in a catheter just yet. Then there's drinks, snacks and yelling at the kids from my front porch to do.

Get off my lawn ya damn kids! (shakes fist)

 

[quicksrt]

One weird thing, and I don't know how this all fits in, is the rise of Megaboxes for Classical Music. They go OOP quickly and often go for significant markup on the secondary market, for instance the https://www.amazon.com/George-Szell-Complete-Columbia-Collection/dp/B079VD2YRP , which I managed to get new for $160 and now sells for over $500. I guess this is mostly evidence of a niche though, not market broadening. And these boxes are also side effects of companies digitizing their tapes for streaming.

So often with a Columbia / Sony catalog, the tapes have long been digitized, been issued on CD already as well, and all they need to do it cut it up into volumes in a box set and press them up.

The streaming avenue is of course the next step after they milk the tapes dry one more time on CD in a big box. The only tapes digitized (just) for streaming are the albums that are so often not even worthy of a CD release. Hitless albums by known artists I've seen get the mastering treatment, and simply go to iTunes only.

 

[quicksrt]

It seems like the record companies are underestimating demand and are pressing too few copies, afraid of being stuck with many copies in the warehouse. The Bruno Walter equivalent of the George Szell box is still in print and priced as it was on the first day.

As more stereo recordings are going PD in Europe, this is their last chance to cash in on many of these recordings.

Those PD sets have really up'd their game so far as quality packages. Six albums on three of four discs, and lovely reproductions of the covers as well. Interesting when they grab a handful of albums by several label, some previously on RCA and a couple from Reprise or Columbia in the same set. Of course label logos air brushed out so immaculately.

But yeah, a lot of classic Jazz recordings, and well known film scores, R&B albums, etc. All showing up in big boxes for a couple dollars a disc. I think Real Gone is one of the labels doing pretty fine examples of this.

 

[Akaiquadster2]

So, you file guys like to just sit back in a chair and click, missing out on much needed exercise as we grow older. I hope your legs keep working.

Doug

I more concerned my ears keep working after all the effort!!

 

[Owen Smith]

What does PD mean in this context?

 

[Bill B]

What does PD mean in this context?

public domain I think

 

[J. PUPSTER]

What does PD mean in this context?

Fizz-ah-cal Discs maybe

 

[jimfisheye]

You all realize that these releases of public domain shared recordings are suddenly official releases as soon as they are officially released like this, right? Some of this is aimed squarely at stopping public domain trade. And there are still bootlegs of public domain recordings sold too (which shouldn't be possible but there are unaware buyers). These sets give them the the ability to issue cease and desist orders.

What's really unfortunate is most of these releases are shockingly substandard copies with zero effort put into tracking down the best source or any proper mastering work. Loyal fans of the groups in question will usually have significantly better copies in their collections. Now you're not allowed to share them anymore because it's an official release now. That it's a substandard copy doesn't matter legally.

A lot of material on the Floyd Early Years set is like this. Those live sets on the recent Sabbath novelty box releases. The live festival sets in the ELP box.

This isn't some last hurrah for some disc format. This is an official cease and desist to trading the live sets. And you don't even get a good copy of the live shows to show for it. Some of these are so lazy with this that not only is the live "bonus" material a poor copy, the main album(s) are lower fidelity copies too. Those Sabbath boxes are glaring for this.

 

[mandrix]

This has been entertaining reading for me. I built a HTPC years ago with the intentions of using some super duper software I could never get to play my ripped surround (the old XMBC) and of course Windows 7 and I bought some shareware to help pull in tv. I bought a Hauppauge 1212 pvr for recording when I wasn't home then WalMart started selling DirecTV dishes so I jumped on that and set it up and it came with a DVR so the lonely 1212 has not seen daylight in years.

So, I guess I just got tired of fooling with all of it. I still got the same HTPC and it gets used for flac, mkv, etc when the home network is actually functioning or sneakernet a usb stick. I have a pc sound system in the bedroom with an old analog input AVR and some Polk bookshelfs but not as satisfying as my main rig, inexpensive though it be.

Now like a lot of you guys, 70 has come and gone, and either I'm slowing down (well, yeah) or whatever but I just don't have much free time as I thought I would after 10 years of retirement. I just say, whatever works for you is fine with me, but I ain't unboxing all my CD's! Jeez, I've got more disc racks than Carter has little liver pills just for surround, although I do have all my surround on HDD's on the shelf or on my two main pc's. I find in general if I like a few songs on an album I usually listen to the whole thing at a sitting.

But man, the weight has come as the body has went down so getting up and down otherwise to change discs on the Oppo's is my penance for getting my slim body up to 215 lbs.

 

[MagnumX]

215? I wish I was 215. 190-215 is my target weight zone (big boned 6'2" and way above that at 46). I haven't been 215 since my 2nd year of college (managed 240 after college down from 305 at the end if it, but gained much back up/down over the years).

I was 160-175 in most of high school, although my body fat was like 3.1% at 170 and they wanted me to gain weight if I went any lower.

Ironically, I had a bet with my mother in 7th grade to get down to 160 from 200 (I was already 6'2" by then) and if I did, she would get me a stereo with a CD player (this was 1987).

I ate cheese and melba toast for lunch and ate very little for dinner and when I got hungry, I'd get the old Sears Christmas catalog out and look at the stereos they had. I lost 40 pounds in about 4 months. I'm sure I was too skinny. But I enjoyed my very first CD (George Harrison 's Cloud 9) that year....

 

[quicksrt]

You all realize that these releases of public domain shared recordings are suddenly official releases as soon as they are officially released like this, right? Some of this is aimed squarely at stopping public domain trade. And there are still bootlegs of public domain recordings sold too (which shouldn't be possible but there are unaware buyers). These sets give them the the ability to issue cease and desist orders.

What's really unfortunate is most of these releases are shockingly substandard copies with zero effort put into tracking down the best source or any proper mastering work. Loyal fans of the groups in question will usually have significantly better copies in their collections. Now you're not allowed to share them anymore because it's an official release now. That it's a substandard copy doesn't matter legally.

A lot of material on the Floyd Early Years set is like this. Those live sets on the recent Sabbath novelty box releases. The live festival sets in the ELP box.

This isn't some last hurrah for some disc format. This is an official cease and desist to trading the live sets. And you don't even get a good copy of the live shows to show for it. Some of these are so lazy with this that not only is the live "bonus" material a poor copy, the main album(s) are lower fidelity copies too. Those Sabbath boxes are glaring for this.

Um, no. An official release of a PD recording does not give it a new fresh copyright, thus making the PD box set stoppable or thus illegal. Nor does the new box set configuration give the PD label a fresh copyright that is protectable. The only thing that can in some cases bring a PD work back into protected copyright would be if there is a new mix that was substantially different than the PD release. Like a stereo mix that has never seen the light of day from the multitracks when a mono only issue had been around for over 50 years. Thaty new mixis a new version of the work and in most cases will hold up in court as a new work,

The times that I have seen an old work get a fresh copyright date is when it was never issued at all (only bootlegs), and the tapes are under 50 years old. Like the Dylan and some Beatles works that came out a few years ago just to give them copyright status.

Now with the Sabbath tapes, there is the fact that 50 years has not yet passed. Yet the group does not always own the tapes if they are old bootlegs. So if they do not own the tapes or the copyright, just simply releasing them does not change that. But there is a grey area here, as some of the tapes might have been originally owned by the group of their management.

The grey area here is that we are discussing PD albums vs live recordings (unissued officially), and the live recordings and their PD status is open to interpretation depending on the given country one is in, and if the recording was ever broadcast on the radio, which would kill any chance of an artist attempting to claim copyright on it. Best case scenario here is for the artist to release a new improved version, grab some cash on this new release, but not attempt to stop the boots of the same material - like Bruce Springsteen has done with Roxy '78, Winterland '78 etc. His own versions (new mixes) I guess could be copyrighted (in the US only), but the old boots (if PD) are still out there to be sold (in certain countries) LEGALLY and nothing he can do about that.

 

[ubertrout]

Um, no. An official release of a PD recording does not give it a new fresh copyright, thus making the PD box set stoppable or thus illegal. Nor does the new box set configuration give the PD label a fresh copyright that is protectable. The only thing that can in some cases bring a PD work back into protected copyright would be if there is a new mix that was substantially different than the PD release. Like a stereo mix that has never seen the light of day from the multitracks when a mono only issue had been around for over 50 years. Thaty new mixis a new version of the work and in most cases will hold up in court as a new work,

The times that I have seen an old work get a fresh copyright date is when it was never issued at all (only bootlegs), and the tapes are under 50 years old. Like the Dylan and some Beatles works that came out a few years ago just to give them copyright status.

Now with the Sabbath tapes, there is the fact that 50 years has not yet passed. Yet the group does not always own the tapes if they are old bootlegs. So if they do not own the tapes or the copyright, just simply releasing them does not change that. But there is a grey area here, as some of the tapes might have been originally owned by the group of their management.

The grey area here is that we are discussing PD albums vs live recordings (unissued officially), and the live recordings and their PD status is open to interpretation depending on the given country one is in, and if the recording was ever broadcast on the radio, which would kill any chance of an artist attempting to claim copyright on it. Best case scenario here is for the artist to release a new improved version, grab some cash on this new release, but not attempt to stop the boots of the same material - like Bruce Springsteen has done with Roxy '78, Winterland '78 etc. His own versions (new mixes) I guess could be copyrighted (in the US only), but the old boots (if PD) are still out there to be sold (in certain countries) LEGALLY and nothing he can do about that.

FWIW, a few years ago the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (one level below the US Supreme Court) rejected the claim that a digital transfer created a new copyrighted work, although the broader question of protection in remasters remains unsettled: http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2018/08/20/16-55917.pdf

(This is just details, btw, you're right on the broad points)

 

[Soundfield]

FWIW, a few years ago the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (one level below the US Supreme Court) rejected the claim that a digital transfer created a new copyrighted work, although the broader question of protection in remasters remains unsettled: http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2018/08/20/16-55917.pdf

(This is just details, btw, you're right on the broad points)

Noting of course US and European/ RoW copyright laws have never been the same, so internationally its even more complicated than that!

 

[ubertrout]

Noting of course US and European/ RoW copyright laws have never been the same, so internationally its even more complicated than that!

Yup! I theoretically know a lot about this and can't tell you for sure the rule there on what would seem to be an important question...especially for unreleased quad tapes.
I'd think they'd look to the US for nonbinding precedent - a sort of "well, we don't have to follow them but we don't have any better ideas and international comity is good, so okay," but who knows. On other areas of copyright like termination of rights the US and UK are extremely far apart, as the Def Leppard case shows.

 

[jimfisheye]

I seem to have been confusing "public domain" with "publicly shared" in previous comments. Public domain is public domain of course! Publicly shared recordings that are not in print are still technically illegal and copyright is inherent even if not expressly stated if I understand correctly.

I just know that old public broadcast recordings that aren't actively being sold by the band get allowed to be shared in fan base forums. A grey area I suppose. And when a band releases one of these it becomes strictly not allowed to be shared. And it doesn't matter if it's a lower quality copy than some of the fans trade and share. This has led to some bands holding their nose as it were and releasing 'whatever' copy of it just to stop people sharing. This stinks when it happens. You'd think they might see the demand for the thing and release something cleaned up that they could feel good about.

Take Iron Maiden for example. When they heard about a lot of file sharing going on in some part of the world with their music... they booked shows there!

 

[Owen Smith]

Take Iron Maiden for example. When they heard about a lot of file sharing going on in some part of the world with their music... they booked shows there!

I have a lot of time for Iron Maiden, they're a band with the right attitude.

And while Queen have not put out very many old concerts or old radio broadcasts, the few they have released have been top quality and rendered any further sharing of those works redundant.