The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

[wolfram]

Well, the first of the advertised slew of new releases is a disappointment, IMO because it appears to only be a DVD-A re-release of a previously released SACD. The DVD-A is also NOT advertised to have an additional surround mix so unless you need Dolby Digital, I see no benefit here in double-dipping. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I hope these 10+ new releases aren't just reissues of the SACD-only titles in the Tacet collection...otherwise I'll be feeling misled!

I was afraid of the same thing and wrote Tacet an e-mail asking about it and telling them how great they are, while being at it. Unfortunatly they didn't really answer the question about the new releases, but only told me how glad they are for my support. So they either avoided the topic (which would be a bad sign), or whoever answered just didn't know.
But I'm confident that there will be some new releases, because they promised the last of the Beethoven string quartets for this year. And the next Beethoven Symphonies should be out this year too.

 

[wolfram]

OK, I will try to re-animate this thread a little (or just hijack it and finally turn it into my own little Tacet Blog). When I wrote this mail to Tacet a few weeks ago, I also told them about this thread, because I thought they might like the idea. They obviously liked it - and mention it on their "news"-page (including link).
http://www.tacet.de/main/seite1.php?language=en&filename=news.php&layout=news
So here is our chance to tell them what we think (and that we are still looking forward to having these new releases).

One thing I'm really curious about, is if any of you have ever heard their Moving Surround Sound and what you think of it? I guess, if there is a place, where the Real Surround Sound (discrete placement of instruments in all speakers) is not very controversial, it's this forum. But are you quad enough for piano keys jumping from speaker to speaker or violins moving in circles around you?

It's a little like listening to the quad sacd of Tubular bells first and then to the 2003 dvd-a. Maybe one only has to get used to it.

I found it worked well for Peter and the Wolf and Carnival of the Animals, maybe because of the playful character of those pieces. The swan (violin) swiming slowly around your head or the little bird flying around, seemed to fit the narrative tone.

On the first of Beethovens string quartets, the strings only change position with each new movement, but are static in themselves. I liked that. But from the second onwards, sometimes effects were added, to make an instrument seem to play from a distance for example. That's when I discovered my limits for multichannel mixes. I love Yoshimi and can enjoy the 2003 TB, but I need to have my classical instruments sound "natural".

So, what's your take? And has anyone heard the Moving Surround mix of the Four Seasons?

 

[wanners]

I just ordered the Vivaldi title with moving surround that you mentioned, and the TACET SACD of Mozart's Eine Kleine.

I can't wait to hear them. I like very aggressive surround mixes so it's nearly impossible for me to be "over multichanneled".

I'll let you know what I think after i hear them.

I was at first taken aback when I learned that most classical mixes are only ambient. I was expecting much more. I am very excited to have found out about TACET, and i'm sure I will be buying more. My feeling is why would I want to bother purchasing or downloading multichannel classical surround titles if I can get a better surround mix running a stereo mix through DPL II?

Incidently, are there any classical surround mixes you know of that are more than just ambience in the rears other than TACET? I'd like to know so I can look for them.

 

[wolfram]

Incidently, are there any classical surround mixes you know of that are more than just ambience in the rears other than TACET? I'd like to know so I can look for them.

The only other label I know of is AIX. But I have not yet heard any of their recordings, though they're supposed to be outstanding sound wise. And they offer different mixes. One with ambience, one with real discrete instrument placement like Tacet. And video as well.

I really have to try some of their stuff too, one of these days. It's just a bit more complicated to order them from Germany. If you should get there first, let me know what you think.

 

[dwight]

The AIX disc CHAMBER MUSIC PALISADES, particularly the Shostakovich piano quintet is sensational...it places the string instruments in every corner and they are staggeringly realistic.

Dwight

 

[wolfram]

Argh, I was afraid of that. So I really will have to get some of these AIX releases as well...

 

[dwight]

Yup!

 

[SoonerCaniac]

OK, I will try to re-animate this thread a little (or just hijack it and finally turn it into my own little Tacet Blog). When I wrote this mail to Tacet a few weeks ago, I also told them about this thread, because I thought they might like the idea. They obviously liked it - and mention it on their "news"-page (including link)...

:banana:

You've made my week Wolfram! Thank you for sharing this thread with Tacet; I can't tell you how excited I am that they have expressed interest in this thread/discussion and linked it to their website! While I realize this forum is primarily geared towards pop/rock, my recent interest in Tacet made me realize that there is a place for discrete multichannel in classical as well. Now that we have their attention, I look forward to reading and contributing reviews, discussion, feedback about Tacet's ambitious projects.

I've spent more time finding and acquiring Tacet's titles than listening to them so far, but it looks like I've got some work to do!

Thanks again, and no, I won't let you hijack the thread (ha ha )! Seriously, I hope other folks on the forum can find opportunities to contribute to the discussion.
Josh

 

[SoonerCaniac]

One thing I'm really curious about, is if any of you have ever heard their Moving Surround Sound and what you think of it?

My copy of the Peter and the Wolf DVD-A is on its way and I haven't ordered the Four Seasons DVD-A yet (US dollar exchange rates have become less favorable recently). I have several (if not all) of the other Moving Real Surround Sound titles having just received them but have not yet gotten to spin the discs (been a little swamped with other responsibilities lately). My exposure to Tacet has been exclusively Real Surround Sound so far, but I am looking forward to hearing the MRSS approach soon. My wife is especially excited about the prospects of Markus Schirmer's Pictures & Reflections DVD-A and we'll probably start there since she loves the piano so much.

Stay tuned...
Josh

 

[wanners]

The only other label I know of is AIX. But I have not yet heard any of their recordings, though they're supposed to be outstanding sound wise. And they offer different mixes. One with ambience, one with real discrete instrument placement like Tacet. And video as well.

I really have to try some of their stuff too, one of these days. It's just a bit more complicated to order them from Germany. If you should get there first, let me know what you think.

Thanks for the info. It's looks like there are a lot of AIX DVD Audios on Amazon. I thought I was going to be able to save some money this summer!@:

 

[wolfram]

:banana:

You've made my week Wolfram!

So please don't read my post about the upcoming Genesis Live releases. I don't want to unmake your week...

My copy of the Peter and the Wolf DVD-A is on its way and I haven't ordered the Four Seasons DVD-A yet (US dollar exchange rates have become less favorable recently). I have several (if not all) of the other Moving Real Surround Sound titles having just received them but have not yet gotten to spin the discs (been a little swamped with other responsibilities lately). My exposure to Tacet has been exclusively Real Surround Sound so far, but I am looking forward to hearing the MRSS approach soon. My wife is especially excited about the prospects of Markus Schirmer's Pictures & Reflections DVD-A and we'll probably start there since she loves the piano so much.

What's really cool about the Peter/Carnival dvd-a is, that you not only have a German and English Narrator, but a music-only version as well. It's the one I listen to, because I don't really need the story. It might be different if you have kids.

I'm curious how you like Pictures & Reflections. I've only heard two pieces of this on the sampler dvd and they sounded beautiful in Real Surround and it's on my wish list. But the Moving Surround version of Baba Yaga's hut "dancing" all over the place is truly for the friends of agressive mixes (actually, I allways have to think of Yoshimi Battles the P. R. part 2). But enough of the spoiling.

And I know your problem of not finding the time to listen to all these discs very well. I just tried to listen to the first 3 parts of the Beethoven string quartets once again. But the first is over 150 min. alone (for one mix, R.S. and M.S. together are 312 min). What were they thinking?

Thanks for the info. It's looks like there are a lot of AIX DVD Audios on Amazon. I thought I was going to be able to save some money this summer!@:

Don't tell me. I just bought an apartement and will have to save some money the next 30 summers.

 

[jmserre]

Hello!

I am a new member. The fact that this thread was linked from the TACET site made me found this community and this thread in particular!.

First I will say that I have the utmost respect for Kal Rubinson. I own an oppo 980H and an Integra DTC 9.8, guess where I heard about them. I also buy a lot of music based on his recommendations, including the great Berlioz Requiem by Norrington, one of my favorite recording of all time.

But as for TACET, I have to respectfully disagree with Kal. TACET if my favorite label, it is IMHO the summum of surround sound recording of classical music. There is so much beauty and fascination there. For me just their recordings completely justifies investing in a fancy multi-channel system.

I think TACET recordings have 2 qualities that I have rarely heard elsewhere:

1-Each instrument has a projection pattern (I think you probably understand what I mean, but English is not my mother tongue, there maybe a better word for this). So for example a Trumpet as a direct projection (the sound is focused and straight) the French Horn as a wide dispersion the sound can bounce of the walls of the concert hall everywhere. A good composer will use each instrument to good effect. Well the TACET recordings captures this very close to the real world. For example if a viola and a violin plays the same note, on their recordings it is obvious which is which. I love horns on their recordings (and trumpet too of course!)

2-Tonmeister Andreas Spreer likes to spread the music lines around and use all the speakers. But he does this with and understanding of the music and what to put where. You do not loose the gesalt of the ensemble, the chords the dynamics the fact that the music blends together. But you can also follow individual strands if you so choose, the trumpet does not mask the oboe. This is particularly good for the inner voices like violas in the orchestra or altos in a choir. Following these recordings with the music scores is a blast. I am an ex-clarinet player and feeling the musicians around gives me the impression that I am with them. You never were interested to hear how the musician playing on the scene feels, instead of being 50 feet away?

I feel classical music recording is extremely conservative and frozen, and TACET is a breath of fresh air!

I have a little web site with some reviews of my favorite multichannel recordings at:

http://www.geocities.com/jmserre/

Be patient there is not much bandwidth, if it blocks just check a few hours later.

Thanks for your time

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Hello!

I am a new member. The fact that this thread was linked from the TACET site made me found this community and this thread in particular!.

First I will say that I have the utmost respect for Kal Rubinson. I own an oppo 980H and an Integra DTC 9.8, guess where I heard about them. I also buy a lot of music based on his recommendations, including the great Berlioz Requiem by Norrington, one of my favorite recording of all time.

But as for TACET, I have to respectfully disagree with Kal.

OK. We agree to disagree.

Kal

 

[wanners]

Hello!

I feel classical music recording is extremely conservative and frozen, and TACET is a breath of fresh air!

I could not agree with you more. If MRSS is too much for someone, there is always the RSS. I just heard one of the TACET demo discs and the way they present classical music should be the standard.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I could not agree with you more. If MRSS is too much for someone, there is always the RSS. I just heard one of the TACET demo discs and the way they present classical music should be the standard.

Whoa! Just because you like it does not mean that it should be the standard. Shouldn't the composer's intention or the performer's intention override our fickle preferences?

Remember, all traditional composers have had the option of surrounding the audience with performers at live performances but only a very few have done this. In those instances, it was done for specific artistic reasons and I, for one, want to hear what the artist intended, whether up front or all around.

Now, I would have no objection to having alternative mixes on a recording (as does AIX and some others) but............................

Kal

 

[jmserre]

Whoa! Just because you like it does not mean that it should be the standard. Shouldn't the composer's intention or the performer's intention override our fickle preferences?

Remember, all traditional composers have had the option of surrounding the audience with performers at live performances but only a very few have done this. In those instances, it was done for specific artistic reasons and I, for one, want to hear what the artist intended, whether up front or all around.

Now, I would have no objection to having alternative mixes on a recording (as does AIX and some others) but............................

Kal

This is where personally I think DVD-A and Blu-ray have and advantage (over SACD) with more space available on disk. I think we could settle for one record with at least two mixes, one standard (with all the instruments in front, and the surround for ambiance) one where instruments are distributed all around (tastefully of course).

I know there is no point arguing taste but I feel I hear more on their recordings, the same way you hear more details on a better sound system. Thanks for your time.

 

[wolfram]

Whoa! Just because you like it does not mean that it should be the standard. Shouldn't the composer's intention or the performer's intention override our fickle preferences?

Well, I don't think there is any danger of the Tacet approach becoming the standard in classical MC music. I feel the same as wanners, that only means that I enjoy the Real Surround Sound more. No harm done. The majority of labels and listerners will stick to the ambience mix. It's really not something we should argue about.

And as for the composer's intention, I find it highly speculative to say what Bach or Beethoven might have prefered. You can surround only very few people with a string quartet, so it surely is not an option for a live situation. I would not be suprised to find the composers to be appalled by the idea of their music being transfered to some dead material (vinyl, plastic, tape) to be heard by single persons in their living room with varying acoustical qualities. And above all the possibility to change the volume at will.

But maybe they would have loved what Tacet is doing to their music. There is really no way of telling.

 

[wolfram]

Salut Jean-Marc, welcome to the forum. It's great to have real expert on Tacet on this thread.

I've visited your site and was amazed by your detailed analyses of those Tacet productions. And I'm especially surprised by someone who knows so much about classical music and even plays an instrument himself, to be so in favour of the Moving Surround Sound. I might print out your notes and give the Beethoven string quartets another listen based on your remarks. Maybe I will warm to the MSS after all. And I will soon order the Pictures disc, for I always had a soft spot for the original piano version.

I agree with you on the Carnival. The MSS works very well on this one.

And I love the Beethoven Septet/Oktet and the Schubert Oktet as well. They are among my favorites.

 

[wanners]

Whoa! Just because you like it does not mean that it should be the standard. Shouldn't the composer's intention or the performer's intention override our fickle preferences?
Kal

No. Who says stereo was any performer or composers intention for it to be heard? There are many different aspects involved in bringing the package to listener, they can't all be determined by one person, even the creator of the music. In my mind, pumping multiple instruments into one or two channels could not ever come close to how an orchestra sounds.

By the way, I'm not really going to even consider the ambient approach as real surround since dolby accomplishes the same thing.

One thing you should know is I'm one of the very few who puts the back speakers equidistant to my ears, not behind me. So all the sound is still more or less in front of me. In multichannel, more instruments get to have their own channel and thus their own space. this to me is closer to how it was meant to be heard in general, despite what some performer or compose might think it's supposed to be.

But I agree no one can win this type of discussion, and I'm not trying to convert anyone.

BTW are you saying that surround sound should not be the standard or that TACET's surround sound method should not be the standard? If you're saying multichannel should not be the standard, I don't agree with that in general.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Well, I don't think there is any danger of the Tacet approach becoming the standard in classical MC music. I feel the same as wanners, that only means that I enjoy the Real Surround Sound more. No harm done. The majority of labels and listerners will stick to the ambience mix. It's really not something we should argue about.

And as for the composer's intention, I find it highly speculative to say what Bach or Beethoven might have prefered. You can surround only very few people with a string quartet, so it surely is not an option for a live situation. I would not be suprised to find the composers to be appalled by the idea of their music being transfered to some dead material (vinyl, plastic, tape) to be heard by single persons in their living room with varying acoustical qualities. And above all the possibility to change the volume at will.

But maybe they would have loved what Tacet is doing to their music. There is really no way of telling.

Well, my point is that composers, even before Beethoven and Bach used antiphonal and "surround" effects for certain pieces, so the awareness of that possibility is long-standing. There's no way to know how any artists of the past would react to the options available today but we do know what they did with the options that were available to them.

Kal