The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

[Kal Rubinson]

No. Who says stereo was any performer or composers intention for it to be heard? There are many different aspects involved in bringing the package to listener, they can't all be determined by one person, even the creator of the music. In my mind, pumping multiple instruments into one or two channels could not ever come close to how an orchestra sounds.

That's a red herring. We are not counting channels here. What we are discussing is the placement of voices/instruments and, in particular, our preferences and those of the creators of the music.

By the way, I'm not really going to even consider the ambient approach as real surround since dolby accomplishes the same thing.

Thanks for relegating those of us who prefer the relatively accurate reproduction of a traditional event to such mediocrity.

One thing you should know is I'm one of the very few who puts the back speakers equidistant to my ears, not behind me. So all the sound is still more or less in front of me.

I have one system like that.

In multichannel, more instruments get to have their own channel and thus their own space. this to me is closer to how it was meant to be heard in general, despite what some performer or compose might think it's supposed to be.

Meant to be heard? By what authority? I do not think that statement is in any way supportable except as a highly personal preference (to which, of course, you are entitled).

But I agree no one can win this type of discussion, and I'm not trying to convert anyone.

Fully agreed. The issue is one of personal preference.

BTW are you saying that surround sound should not be the standard or that TACET's surround sound method should not be the standard? If you're saying multichannel should not be the standard, I don't agree with that in general.

I believe that MCH should be the standard and that, in general, the intentions of the artists should be of primary concern. Anything beyond that is "added value" and subjective.

Kal

 

[wolfram]

Well, my point is that composers, even before Beethoven and Bach used antiphonal and "surround" effects for certain pieces, so the awareness of that possibility is long-standing. There's no way to know how any artists of the past would react to the options available today but we do know what they did with the options that were available to them.

Kal

To be honest, I never heard of classical composers experimenting with surrounding ensembles. Fascinating! I will have to look into that.

And to be even more honest, I can live with the possibility of Beethoven rejecting these mixes (or recordings in general), I still like them. Nobody asked John Lennon's opinion, still many here love Love.

 

[wanners]

That's a red herring. We are not counting channels here. What we are discussing is the placement of voices/instruments and, in particular, our preferences and those of the creators of the music.

Fair enough

Thanks for relegating those of us who prefer the relatively accurate reproduction of a traditional event to such mediocrity.

I disagree that ambient is necessarily more accurate, but I'll defer to someone with more knowledge. Also, you took it negatively, I'm just saying that ambient is like stereo on vitamins.

Meant to be heard? By what authority? I do not think that statement is in any way supportable except as a highly personal preference (to which, of course, you are entitled).

I think what I really meant here is that I think real surround sound is more accurate, even if the placement is not exactly like a performance. If there are two violin players, then it makes more sense to me that if each has it's own channel, this is a more accurate depiction of reality; where they are placed is what causes the "issue".

I believe that MCH should be the standard and that, in general, the intentions of the artists should be of primary concern. Anything beyond that is "added value" and subjective.

Not sure I agree that the intention of the artist has to be the primary concern for home listening. I've seen a lot of threads that have discussions like this one, and while there is never a resolution, I do think that it comes down to what the listener wants and should not be tied to some idea of what the music sounds like in performance or what the artist thinks it should sound like in my house.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Well, we seem to be disagreeing on some words. When I said "accurate" I was using it in the same way as one would use "high fidelity:" The reproduction of a real-world event as similar to that original event as possible. You, I think, are using it to mean that you can hear greater detail of individual instruments better, something I would not dispute, but I would call that an analytical dissection of the music rather than an accurate reproduction.

Even the word "real" is being used differently, it seems. Real surround, to me, is discrete multichannel. What is carried on those channels is what we are discussing. But, in that context, I still maintain that it must relate to an original reference event. What you are referring to is something I would call an "immersive" or "surround-y" mix and would not label as either accurate or real.

BTW, you stated that "I'm just saying that ambient is like stereo on vitamins." For me, ambient MCH is stereo done properly. :banana:

I must say that I do enjoy many of the TaceT recordings but I am more titillated by the effects and find them distracting when I want to concentrate on the music.

Finally, let me suggest a few pieces written for a surround effect (and I put aside all those off-stage instruments used by Mozart, Beethoven, Verdi, Mahler, etc.).
Vivaldi: Concertos for Double Orchestra http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/50
Berlioz: Requiem http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/3728
Magnar Am: http://www.2l.musiconline.no/shop/displayAlbumExtended.asp?id=35549
Various new names: http://www.starkland.com/st2010/index.htm

Kal

 

[wanners]

I still maintain that it must relate to an original reference event.

This seems to be the issue. Not sure why you feel this way, it becomes a limitation on the possiblities, and is not necessary.

I agree with your use of terminology; and thanks for the suggestions, I will check them out

 

[Kal Rubinson]

This seems to be the issue. Not sure why you feel this way, it becomes a limitation on the possiblities, and is not necessary.

Well, let's say that I find the options that you champion to be a distortion of the work of art and not necessary.

I think that defines our positions.

Kal

 

[jmserre]

Salut Jean-Marc, welcome to the forum. It's great to have real expert on Tacet on this thread.

I've visited your site and was amazed by your detailed analyses of those Tacet productions. And I'm especially surprised by someone who knows so much about classical music and even plays an instrument himself, to be so in favour of the Moving Surround Sound. I might print out your notes and give the Beethoven string quartets another listen based on your remarks. Maybe I will warm to the MSS after all. And I will soon order the Pictures disc, for I always had a soft spot for the original piano version.

I agree with you on the Carnival. The MSS works very well on this one.

And I love the Beethoven Septet/Oktet and the Schubert Oktet as well. They are among my favorites.

Bonjour Wolfram!

Thanks for the compliment. I enjoyed reading the last few post and will try to clarify my position. One concert season I played Peter and the Wolf about 16 times in various halls. (Of course I was the cat . Now the hall affects the listeners but it also affect the players. So in some halls it may have sounded great for the audience but it was terrible for us we had trouble hearing each others. But on the best places from a performer point of view it was like being in a TACET recordings, we had a kind of hyper clarity of hearing each others individually but also collectively at the same time.

I would also to like to comment that Mr Spreer sometimes like to provoke, and probably he goes too far but I like is somebody taking risks. For the Beethoven symphony I understand he wanted to show off the winds that are often neglected but it is a bit extreme to put them at the front. I would have put the strings in front and the winds behind.

Great to read so many good comments.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I would also to like to comment that Mr Spreer sometimes like to provoke, and probably he goes too far but I like is somebody taking risks.

Agreed and I have been fascinated by some of his moves. The scherzo of the Schubert Octet where the lead sweeps around the room and opening of the Bach Motets which surprises by placing the listener in the choir, facing the audience, are memorable.

Kal

 

[jmserre]

Agreed and I have been fascinated by some of his moves. The scherzo of the Schubert Octet where the lead sweeps around the room and opening of the Bach Motets which surprises by placing the listener in the choir, facing the audience, are memorable.

Kal

I do not know if you had time to listen to the Bouzignac with the same excellent choir than the Bach motets. In track 18th there is a double circle around the listener. The first one is the soloists closer to the listening position then there is a second larger circle for the choir. Also memorable IMHO.

I once send Mr Spreer an e-mail asking if he actually moves the musician around, I mean positioning them as per what we hear (I do not mean moving while playing!) He was evasive in his answer (probably a trade secret).

 

[alexander J]

Just want to give my quick hat off to the work of Andreas Spreer.
However I don’t think that is "politically correct" to fly banner "Real Surround" compeering to work done by many over labels delivering surround music experience his approach of showcasing Discrete Surround Sound Reproduction is sonically Effective and Masterful.

 

[wolfram]

I just recieved the Tacet newsletter and the next dvd-a from them are the Beethoven Symphonies nos. 1 & 2, which have already been published on sacd. So no really new stuff so far, but good for those without sacd-gear.

Still, I would really love to see something new...

 

[DaneelOlivaw]

Still, I would really love to see something new...

Why don't you ask them for a Beethoven mash-up, you know, like the Beatles Love album?

Or maybe get some renowned DJs and remixers together and do, say, Stravinsky Remixed like those Verve remixed albums?*

Introduce a whole new generation to classical *and* surround music at the same time!

@:




* here's two of my favorites on that first remix album that I own: Dinah Washington's "Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" remixed by Rae & Christian and Astrud Gilberto's "Who Needs Forever" remixed by Thievery Corporation.

 

[SoonerCaniac]

To follow-up wolfram's post:

NEW RELEASE:

Polish Chamber Philharmonic Orchestra - Beethoven: Symphony No. 1 in C major, op. 21; Symphony No. 2 in D major, op. 36

Agreed wolfram...unless you need Dolby Digital...I think we see what is happening here. I'm sorry, but releasing a previous SACD release on DVD-A does not constitute much to get excited about. It looks like my dream of hearing Holst's The Planets and/or Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue in Real and Moving Surround Sound will have to wait.

My excitement has been extinguished for now...there are plenty of other Tacet SACDs that can be released on DVD-A before we'll ever see new material.

Here's hoping we are wrong!
Josh

 

[SoonerCaniac]

To wolfram, Kal, Jean-Marc, and wanners:

Thank you all for the interesting discussion about Tacet's unique approach...this was the type of discussion I was hoping folks would generate and it's helping me learn more about Tacet and classical music in general since I am a complete novice in both! I wish I had more to say but I have not listened to enough Tacet and "standard" classical surround in order to feel like I can contribute yet.

Keep it going and thanks again!
Josh

 

[DaneelOlivaw]

So no really new stuff so far, but good for those without sacd-gear.

I don't mean to sound like a dvd-audio fan boy, but the reality is that just like with the sacd format* very few entry-level to mid-fi dvd-audio players are being manufactured now, but standard 5.1 channel dvd systems are about as common as McDonalds and cell phones. And since many fans of music are not fans of Super High Fidelity (which in my opinion is not needed to appreciate music's positive qualities), Dolby Digital is a perfectly acceptable way to hear surround music IMO. Plus DD has none of the problems that still seem to plague hi-res formats like the 10dB LFE boost issue and the players that "get confused" when performing bass management on hi-res signals. And DD doesn't need HDMI or a three pairs of interconnects to deliver itself to a receiver or processor - just a plain ol' Toslink or coaxial connection is all that's needed.

* Sony is the only brand I am aware of that still sells an affordable multichannel player strictly for sacd and CD playback ---> the $150 SCD-CE595. Edit! I just checked Sony's site and it's no longer available - only refurbished versions are for sale now ($59.97 as of today). The next model in their line up is a 400 disc sacd/dvd/CD changer, the $399 DVP-CX995V.

And many of their all-in-one systems (HTiBs) still include sacd playback, including the least expensive model, the $299 DAV-HDX285 which also comes with an iPod dock. This is a good thing since such systems seem to be much bigger sellers to non-audiophiles than component systems.

 

[wolfram]

Why don't you ask them for a Beethoven mash-up, you know, like the Beatles Love album?

Or maybe get some renowned DJs and remixers together and do, say, Stravinsky Remixed like those Verve remixed albums?*

Introduce a whole new generation to classical *and* surround music at the same time!

@:

I mean, it's about bloody time we got something new from those guys. How long has it been, since Mozart brought out a new album that wasn't some sort of Best-Of. Lazy creep.

And Remixes are a great idea. I've been waiting for someone to mix a medley of the last movements of Beethoven's 9th and Mahler's 8th. That would give you about three large choirs and an orchestra so big, you'd need a sports stadium. Now there's some great material for a surround mix!:banana:

 

[wolfram]

My excitement has been extinguished for now...there are plenty of other Tacet SACDs that can be released on DVD-A before we'll ever see new material.

Actually, there isn't so much, that has been sacd-only until now in the Tacet catalogue. The have always seemed to prefer dvd-a (which now shows even more). And as long as there are one or two interesting titles I do not yet have, I'm not too nervous (except for those last 3 Beethoven symphonies. Aaaarrrrrgh!!!).

Good thing is, I get some time to listen to the old ones a bit more often. There are times when I buy a lot of new surround stuff in a short time and don't get around to listen to it properly. I've never been a big Depeche Mode fan, but I just bought almost all of their albums in a couple of weeks (because of the sacds going opp) and I just don't have the time to enjoy them.

So, for the moment I'm still kinda relaxed, but Tacet shouldn't wait forever with some new releases. Please.

 

[SoonerCaniac]

Actually, there isn't so much, that has been sacd-only until now in the Tacet catalogue.

Yes, I realize this, but a quick glance at SA-CD.net shows a decent number that have not seen DVD-A releases. Granted several of them are the older releases, so hopefully they won't bother with those... However, I would guess at least another 2-3 "new" releases will be DVD-A reissues.

The have always seemed to prefer dvd-a (which now shows even more). And as long as there are one or two interesting titles I do not yet have, I'm not too nervous (except for those last 3 Beethoven symphonies. Aaaarrrrrgh!!!).

DVD-A is clearly the preference, and I'm perfectly fine with that, though I would love to see a CD/DVD-A 2-disc approach, but there are workarounds to that... Certainly, I'm not losing any sleep over this, I've got plenty of Tacet titles to keep me busy for a LONG time, but I do love to see labels come out with new high-resolution surround regardless.

Good thing is, I get some time to listen to the old ones a bit more often. There are times when I buy a lot of new surround stuff in a short time and don't get around to listen to it properly. I've never been a big Depeche Mode fan, but I just bought almost all of their albums in a couple of weeks (because of the sacds going opp) and I just don't have the time to enjoy them.

I'm in 100% agreement...the challenge of getting into this hobby so late is that there are practically years of catching up to do, depending on how diverse your musical tastes are. I hate buying new discs without listening to other new discs I've recently purchased FIRST, but with this hobby, I don't have that luxury. Far too many discs I've bought from nearly depleted inventories and shortly afterward the prices skyrocketed...so you snooze you lose. The other "problem" I have is that I really like to familiarize myself with the music in stereo first before I hear it in surround (I've found it makes the impact of the music and the mix far more substantial) so I tend to have an approach that slows the process down a little from when I purchase a disc to when I hear it in surround.

So, for the moment I'm still kinda relaxed, but Tacet shouldn't wait forever with some new releases. Please.

Well...if they do release 10 "new" titles this year, and our estimations are correct, we may get at least a few new titles by the end of the year or by early next year. That's better than nothing! That just gives us time to enjoy all of the wonderful titles that Tacet has already produced.

Regards,
Josh

 

[Kal Rubinson]

"London Symphony Orchestra - Stravinsky: Petrouchka (Music 8/10; Mix 8/10; Fidelity 7/10); Firebird Suite (Music 6/10; Mix 3/10; Fidelity 5/10) [SACD] "

Ummm. Which?

Kal

 

[aquadad]

Hello,

In my quest to find a classical title that showcased a discrete surround mix, my search ended with Tacet's "Octet in F major D803-op. posth. 166" by Camerata Freden as referenced in the second post of this thread:

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6635&highlight=tacet