Tommy again 5.1 on Blu-Ray

[IMachine]

In my opinion you can clearly see which channels should belong together:

 

[Fourplay]

Thanks for the waveforms. Could you possibly give us waveforms from the exact same passage of either the SACD or the DVD-A for comparison?

I assume this track is 1921. Correct?

See you around!

 

[grill]

In my opinion you can clearly see which channels should belong together:

View attachment 12167

Yes, FL/SL and FR/SR look like pairs. The question is if they should be remapped as fronts and rears (as Fredblue suggested earlier).

 

[IMachine]

Yes, FL/SL and FR/SR look like pairs. The question is if they should be remapped as fronts and rears (as Fredblue suggested earlier).

It is a matter of taste. I like the drums in the rears, when it's an old album from the 60s.
As for newer productions I prefer drums in the front.
Therefore I wish it would be corrected counter-clockwise and the center and LFE left untouched.

 

[grill]

Thanks for the waveforms. Could you possibly give us waveforms from the exact same passage of either the SACD or the DVD-A for comparison?

I assume this track is 1921. Correct?

See you around!

The waveforms show the entire album. Here are those of DVDA:

 

[jsayers]

Wow - that's some difference!

 

[fredblue]

It is a matter of taste. I like the drums in the rears, when it's an old album from the 60s.
As for newer productions I prefer drums in the front.
Therefore I wish it would be corrected counter-clockwise and the center and LFE left untouched.

in this case I'm not thinking of channel placement to my preference/taste or pertinent to the 60's vintage of the material, I'm thinking "how might Bob Pridden & co. have envisaged this 5.1 mix in 2013?".

of course I have no factual proof but my hunch is they intended the drums to be located across Front L&R, hence my conclusions the mix is screwed up and needs changing as I suggested. I'm almost past caring and hopefully will be completely past caring when the next few surround goodies I've got coming land on the doormat

 

[fredblue]

Wow - that's some difference!

I had a whole squabble with some twat over at the SHF about this - the old SACD/DVDA mix was compressed, the new Blu-ray is not - the SHF member would not have any of it but who cares, I know how I feel about the two mixes/masterings by comparison with basic listening I don't need graphs but I am grateful for all the time and trouble Grill & Jon U etc have taken to create these graphs, which back up what my old lugholes told me just by listening to the two different mixes/masterings on the same setup at the same volume etc.

 

[Fourplay]

The waveforms show the entire album. Here are those of DVDA:

View attachment 12179

As I suspected. The loudness wars are alive and well on this DVD-A release. So to add to my previous comments, if you want to hear the cleanest capture of the dynamics of the original recording, the Blu-ray is the way to go!

Ken

 

[steelydave]

I would listen to the various pairs isolated on headphones and see if there are any commonalities with the center speaker - for example if there is vocal bleed from the vocals that are isolated in the center speaker, maybe there's more bleed in the front left and right than the rear left and right, or perhaps that the vocal bleeds in the rear speakers would have more echo/reverb on them, things like that.

 

[Scott M4]

My Impressions on the Blu-ray Tommy Mix

For those of you WHO have come here seeking guidance for a purchase decision of this mix, here are my 5.1 cents.

This release is in some ways parallel to the Pink Floyd DSOTM & WYWH releases, in the sense that we have multiple releases of multiple mixes on multiple formats. Some may find this annoying, as it may seem like an attempt to extort more money from the fan. I personally do not mind multiple variations as long as said variations are wide enough to add new depth and perspective on the underlying recordings. ...........

In summary, I am glad to own all three versions. Each offers something different. My default for Tommy would be SACD DSD for general listening, and Blu-ray if I wanted to get fresh perspective on the music. Even at that, I think the Blu-ray is interesting enough to warrant repeated listenings.

I hope this helps!

See you around!

Ken

THANKS Ken, My enquiry was actually about a proper answer from Universal... and if there would be a recall/replacement like for Thick As A Brick due to the likely speaker mixup. Instead I got an awesome in-depth comparison which makes me itchy to rip off the Blu ray's wrapper instead of waiting for a proper replacement. I'm lucky to have the DVD mix (which I'm immersed in now as I type - Underture) to tide me over. Townsend is one of my fave guitarists but I dearly want Maximum Moon in my mix instead of just in a corner. Thanks again!

 

[himey]

Sparks and Underture sound really good with the drums in left rear and other percussion (tamborine and another drum) in the right rear.

 

[leevitalone1]

My copy arrived today and a listen reminds me of the old stereo amps that allowed R & L to be reversed. This is what should happen here. Although it's terrific, I somehow feel I should reach in back of my Denon and switch rear and front. Why? are the drums dedicated to L rear? Not complaining-just very confused indeed. It's a damm good thing I have good quality speakers in back now, they really handle the drums well. Still, I can't help but wonder if it was unintended. My next move is to acquire the sacd. might just as well.

 

[ssully]

Your ears don't lie.

View attachment 12164

Those levels do make me wonder if channels 2 and 5 haven't been mistakenly switched in production. Otherwise the the Right side (front and back) seems significantly underpowered compared to Left.

 

[dr8track]

Those levels do make me wonder if channels 2 and 5 haven't been mistakenly switched in production. Otherwise the the Right side (front and back) seems significantly underpowered compared to Left.

That does look suspicious. Moving the channels as you suggest would move the main drum kit from the LS to the RF. Not sure how much better that would sound, but might be less distracting. Those changes would also place the guitars at the start of Pinball Wizard in the surround channels. Right now the guitar starts in the RS then another guitar kicks in at the RF speaker. It seems very lopsided mixed this way. This move would place those guitars in the RS and then the LS, which would likely sound way better.
If this was screwed up in mastering then that is extremely disappointing. I'd almost prefer it was just a bizarre intentional mix than to have this constant crap shoot on whether the product we are getting has the channel placement as the producer intended.

 

[sukothai]

I'm just happy it is discrete ... gives us more to play with!

 

[ssully]

As I suspected. The loudness wars are alive and well on this DVD-A release. So to add to my previous comments, if you want to hear the cleanest capture of the dynamics of the original recording, the Blu-ray is the way to go!

Ken

I'd note that a low-resolution view like this doesn't necessarily demonstrate clipping. Proving that would require zooming in a lot more. It doesn't even necessarily mean compression, since EQ moves can create 'fat' views like this too. LAstly, this appearance doesn't mean it must sound worse or better than another version -- a lot of factors contribute to that (such as the EQ again..and of course the mix itself!)

 

[himey]

This version sounds better than the previous 5.1 DVDA/SACD, putting the mix aside. I think the less compressed bluray edition sounds excellent. Not that the previous sq was bad but this one takes it up a few notches.

 

[rtbluray]

In October, The Who are going to release a live Blu-Ray of their 2017 concert of "Tommy" at the Royal Albert Hall.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tommy-Live-Royal-Albert-Blu-Ray/dp/B07472V1D9?tag=shtv.uk-21

 

[leevitalone1]

Hoo Boy! By accounts I have read, they ought to be able to do Tommy in their sleep. Practiced to death, and who was it that was asked what they thought of the album ( a member) said he never did hear it because he was so sick of playing it repeatedly.