Which NAS do list members prefer?

[AYanguas]

One tiny comment.

While I do agree with the point about power off/on, hard drives fail because they're hard drives. It's axiomatic.

Hard drives come in two forms: dying and dead.

I agree. It is like any other form of life. We just can never know when.

 

[timothyemerson]

I have the PC server (mine), my Wife PC, and the NAS for the Media Library in another room.
As we did a whole Home renovation I plan for cabling the house and put additional recessed gutters that cross between rooms.
This way I can throw myself cables (ethernet, hdmi, USB) as required, from one room to another.

If you have a room dedicated to office, where you have your working place with your PC, in a different room than the Listening/Watching room, it could be better to locate the NAS near your PC and have access from the Listening room just through ethernet. Asuming you can do the cabling. You have to plan then for switches to have enough ports to connect.

With respect to the noise, as soon as music or movies play a little, the sound of the NAS should go unnoticed. Of course it depends on what you consider annoying.

In my case, I was afraid of the fan of the projector noise, that is really a lttle high. I do not have the projector enclosed in a cabinet. But when music/films start to sound the projector sound dissapears.
For low volume music critical listening, I then turn off the Projector and start the TV for player navigation. Thats much better when I want silence.



I think there would be no problem in power ON/OFF the NAS several times a week. Someone have said in the past that specially the HDDs could suffer from start/stop many times more than beeing ON all the time at its constant temperature. But with modern disks I belive you can do that without any problem. If the disk is going to fail it will fail because it is a bad unit, and not because power ON/OFF every one or two days.

Thanks for this!

Yes, what you've suggested all sounds good. NAS could either sit in the cabinet which could be insulated with some foam if that kills the noise enough and if not, it could live in the office and I could run an ethernet cable through the roof to the lounge (which has some major corners to get around but I'll deal with that if/when the time comes).

With regard to HDDs, the 3 backups I have with all my music on them have performed fine with being powered on/off via the Sony X800 when playing and via computer when copying files to and fro with no problems for almost 3 years. I thought one of them would have died by now but so far, they're behaving (1 of them's going to die now that I've typed this). So, I think I'll take my usual power-on-only-when-in-use approach for the NAS too. I know many have differing opinions with regard to leaving anything computer-related on all the time but I ain't buying it.

 

[AYanguas]

...
So, I think I'll take my usual power-on-only-when-in-use approach for the NAS too. I know many have differing opinions with regard to leaving anything computer-related on all the time but I ain't buying it.

I think it's a lottery. You never know.

In the past, when I was working and the HDD's were of poorer quality (or are they now poorer quality??...), they said that what caused stress to the HDD was the different changing temperatures, from the cold ambient of an air-conditioned Data Center to the hot working temperature.

Modern disks in the usual working conditions at home suffer for much less temperature changes.

Also, when the NAS is permanently ON, if the HDD goes to sleep with the heads parked, and then awakes for a little and then goes again to sleep... Yes there is no temperature change but more accumulated mechanical stress.

So, I would say be comfortable with powering OFF the NAS everydays.

 

[timothyemerson]

You are welcome. The flashed BD drive is a requirement of course if you want to rip 4K discs. I also use DVDFab to rip the 4K discs. Their UHD suite works well. I have found though that ripping 4K discs sometimes fails on even new discs. Sometimes cleaning of the disc is required a few times to get it to work. I use an LG WH16NS40.

From the M2TS and MKV testing I've done with the 2 players I have, it seems that M2TS is the way to go to ensure subtitles can be displayed and to ensure Dolby Atmos-only audio tracks can be played back as Dolby TrueHD on my 5.1 set-up.

As I've only just started using MakeMKV to back up to M2TS, I wanted to ask if there was any benefit to keeping the entire file structure of the M2TS backup as it appears, or is copying and renaming the M2TS files that appear in the STREAM folder OK to do (e.g., "Movie Name.m2ts" for the renamed movie, "Interview with the Director.m2ts" for one of the extras, etc) ? I've tried copying and renaming the M2TS's in this way and they play fine from HDD via the Sony X800 but just wanted to ask what you do with your backups.

 

[jarrod2750]

Two single points of failure.

The idea of NASs is to move away from single points of failure.

Instead of that.... create two partitions in each NAS, one for audio, one for video. Use one NAS as backup for the other.

That’s a good suggestion but I wanted to keep things separate and have a dedicated NAS for Roon and the other for JRiver and Video. I’m using a Synology 920 and 1821 and are happy with both. Roon is a great service but I learned if your home network and hardware is having issues Roon doesn’t handle it well, and therefore why I wanted a separate NAS for my Roon library. I have everything backed up to other drives, now it is a decision as to cloud or not for back up option 3!

 

[tonyE]

That’s a good suggestion but I wanted to keep things separate and have a dedicated NAS for Roon and the other for JRiver and Video. I’m using a Synology 920 and 1821 and are happy with both. Roon is a great service but I learned if your home network and hardware is having issues Roon doesn’t handle it well, and therefore why I wanted a separate NAS for my Roon library. I have everything backed up to other drives, now it is a decision as to cloud or not for back up option 3!

My turntable is my only single point of failure.. but oh, what a fine sounding single point of failure. ;^)

 

[tonyE]

I agree. It is like any other form of life. We just can never know when.

Try running SMART diagnostics.

 

[tonyE]

I think it's a lottery. You never know.

In the past, when I was working and the HDD's were of poorer quality (or are they now poorer quality??...), they said that what caused stress to the HDD was the different changing temperatures, from the cold ambient of an air-conditioned Data Center to the hot working temperature.

Modern disks in the usual working conditions at home suffer for much less temperature changes.

Also, when the NAS is permanently ON, if the HDD goes to sleep with the heads parked, and then awakes for a little and then goes again to sleep... Yes there is no temperature change but more accumulated mechanical stress.

So, I would say be comfortable with powering OFF the NAS everydays.

Some issues with powering down.

(1) Drives use caching, so if you're in the middle of doing IO, you are going to have significant data in the cache. Now, drives will tend to have some built in capacitance, but even so, it's hard to make sure that there is enough power to clear the cache.

(2) SDDs are also pretty bad at this because they also keep even more cache in DDR (RAM) because of the nature of the block write. So, even with enough capacitance, it takes a LOT of power to write entire blocks of data into NAND.

In fact, SSDs are always doing reading and writing because they do wear leveling and garbage collection, so it's always the worst type of device to do this. Cache is always being used.

(3) Parity RAID ( sp. RAID 5) are the worse, because now you have parity and data to write.

(4) Obviously, SDD running RAID 5 (never do this) are the worst.

If the data and ensuing metadata are not properly stored you run the risk of corrupting the storage.

The safest way to handle ALL drives is to let them go to sleep on their own or to shut them down via the host.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I'm thinking Kodi running on Raspberry Pi rather than Plex. I have zero experience with either media player but I've read about Plex doing some weird things (I can't remember what exactly but the outcome I remember was "Use Kodi when the time comes"). In terms of interface, I just need something really simple that displays folders in the usual alphanumerical order I expect based on how Windows Explorer displays folders/files. For example, I play all my music from a HDD plugged into my Sony X800 4K player. Its basic interface is all I need.

Audio is the trickier bit, as Plex really doesn't do hires audio. Kodi will, as I understand it.

Then Kodi is definitely what you want. Plex won't do that at all; Plex is designed to present you with a Netflix-style interface to your content. Clients can't see the file/folder structure at all.

I don't have any recent experience with running Kodi on a Pi, so I don't know what limitations it might have (if any).

Don't discount the worth of a well designed user interface. I use Kodi. The user interface is one of the best parts.

I don't use it, so I cant advise, but I understand there is a Plex plug-in for Kodi.

In Kodi, clients cant see the folder/file structure either. Kodi is completely tag based. As long as the tagging is correct, Kodi doesn't care where the files reside.

I've never run a Raspberry Pi, but many do and I havent heard anyone complain about any limitations. Also consider the many Android based "Kodi boxes" out there. Most are cheap and they perform pretty well. I use a Kodi enabled Firestick 4k for my stereo bedroom system and it performs perfectly. It would support multichannel just as easily.

 

[tonyE]

Don't discount the worth of a well designed user interface. I use Kodi. The user interface is one of the best parts.

I don't use it, so I cant advise, but I understand there is a Plex plug-in for Kodi.

In Kodi, clients cant see the folder/file structure either. Kodi is completely tag based. As long as the tagging is correct, Kodi doesn't care where the files reside.

I've never run a Raspberry Pi, but many do and I havent heard anyone complain about any limitations. Also consider the many Android based "Kodi boxes" out there. Most are cheap and they perform pretty well. I use a Kodi enabled Firestick 4k for my stereo bedroom system and it performs perfectly. It would support multichannel just as easily.

I think that you need to take into account the client.

We use Plex because our LG TVs run WebOS and they have a Plex server built it and our WDC PR4100s ship with a Plex server. So that was a no brainer.

For audio, I just mount the smb drives, peruse the hirez WAV file system ( directories names after type/artist/album) and use foobar to play them back. Or I use Android tablets/phone to play either online or downloaded Tidal music.

 

[timothyemerson]

In Kodi, clients cant see the folder/file structure either. Kodi is completely tag based. As long as the tagging is correct, Kodi doesn't care where the files reside.

Dang it, only music I've downloaded is tagged. Everything I've backed up from discs is organised via file name. Might have to go with another sort of player. Oh well.

 

[AYanguas]

The safest way to handle ALL drives is to let them go to sleep on their own or to shut them down via the host.

Of course before powering down disks you should shut them down. Or eject or dismount or whatever procedure that applies.

Always, when talking about Powering OFF a NAS, it should be understood that you must run the Shutdown procedure from its utilities from the Host. Not just disconect the power.

I spent a lot of effort to be able to launch the Shutdown procedure (not trivial) to my WD NAS from the software of the UPS, from the running script for the power outage.

 

[tonyE]

Of course before powering down disks you should shut them down. Or eject or dismount or whatever procedure that applies.

Always, when talking about Powering OFF a NAS, it should be understood that you must run the Shutdown procedure from its utilities from the Host. Not just disconect the power.

I spent a lot of effort to be able to launch the Shutdown procedure (not trivial) to my WD NAS from the software of the UPS, from the running script for the power outage.

Actually, in an NAS, or even those RAID5 eSATA/USB bricks, the front panel switch is a 'soft shut down"... meaning that it's an interrupt handled by the software that clears the cache, updates the metadata and then shuts down.

It's a bit different and more orderly than just pulling the plug.

With an HDD set up, when the drives go to sleep, the cache and what not gets cleared, so if you lose power ( say you lose power and your UPS eventually wears out ) the set up is reasonable.

 

[AYanguas]

Actually, in an NAS, or even those RAID5 eSATA/USB bricks, the front panel switch is a 'soft shut down"... meaning that it's an interrupt handled by the software that clears the cache, updates the metadata and then shuts down.

It's a bit different and more orderly than just pulling the plug.

With an HDD set up, when the drives go to sleep, the cache and what not gets cleared, so if you lose power ( say you lose power and your UPS eventually wears out ) the set up is reasonable.

My first old Synology efectively has a front panel button than when long pressed launches shutdown and then poweroff.

But my second (now old) WD My Cloud EX2 NAS has no front panel button. Neither any back power button. Either you remove the power cord (not recommended) or have to enter utilities to launch the Shutdown. It seems the design was done to leave those NAS 24x7 connected.

 

[tonyE]

My first old Synology efectively has a front panel button than when long pressed launches shutdown and then poweroff.

But my second (now old) WD My Cloud EX2 NAS has no front panel button. Neither any back power button. Either you remove the power cord (not recommended) or have to enter utilities to launch the Shutdown. It seems the design was done to leave those NAS 24x7 connected.

I never cared about the design of those My Cloud boxes.

I understand the concept of using a programmable interface (web) to configure an NAS because they are pretty complex... but I still like my Startech RAID boxes. You program the RAID from the front panel and then configure logically via Windows or Linux.

Unfortunately, I just noticed they don't make those nice RAID boxes anymore.

 

[HomerJAU]

From the M2TS and MKV testing I've done with the 2 players I have, it seems that M2TS is the way to go to ensure subtitles can be displayed and to ensure Dolby Atmos-only audio tracks can be played back as Dolby TrueHD on my 5.1 set-up.

As I've only just started using MakeMKV to back up to M2TS, I wanted to ask if there was any benefit to keeping the entire file structure of the M2TS backup as it appears, or is copying and renaming the M2TS files that appear in the STREAM folder OK to do (e.g., "Movie Name.m2ts" for the renamed movie, "Interview with the Director.m2ts" for one of the extras, etc) ? I've tried copying and renaming the M2TS's in this way and they play fine from HDD via the Sony X800 but just wanted to ask what you do with your backups.

Warning: Not all movies reside in a single .M2TS file. Your idea of renaming them won’t work. Converting to MKV joins the various .M2TS files in the correct sequence into a single lossless file.

Also, .M2TS on their own contain no chapter data. MKV files do contain chapters if you rip them.

If you are using Kodi I’d recommend using a single MKV as they are easier to handle and scrape into the Kodi library (database).

I have two NAS. Both Synology. One has all my music (audio only and concert videos). The other movies and TV series. I have them both in my office. My 2 Kodi systems are in other rooms. I only turn on a NAS if I’m using it. Both have auto-off set to 1:00am (in case I forget to turn off manually).

Both NAS stop drives from spinning if a drive is not active for15minutes (drives sleep to save energy/wear when not being used).

If you plan to use Kodi then start tagging your albums now. Also there is a great movie scrapper app (free) that will get all your movie covers and actor images, and other info easily. I can help you get that started. All this shows up in Kodi when you look at the movie section, to select something to play.

 

[tonyE]

...
I have two NAS.... Both have auto-off set to 1:00am (in case I forget to turn off manually).
...
If you plan to use Kodi then start tagging your albums now. Also there is a great movie scrapper app (free) that will get all your movie covers and actor images, and other info easily. I can help you get that started. All this shows up in Kodi when you look at the movie section, to select something to play.

If you have the HDDs to go to sleep after 15 minutes of no action, why do you also shut down the NASs?

Will Kodi handle 24/96 WAV files?

 

[atrocity]

Will Kodi handle 24/96 WAV files?

I assume so, given that I've had success with FLAC up to 24/192.

 

[HomerJAU]

If you have the HDDs to go to sleep after 15 minutes of no action, why do you also shut down the NASs?

Will Kodi handle 24/96 WAV files?

I don’t use my two NASs everyday and I’m a power Nazi

Yes Kodi plays 24/96 WAVs but to get them into its library they need to be tagged. Kodi uses its library (media database) to play files. It’s not a casual file player.

 

[timothyemerson]

Warning: Not all movies reside in a single .M2TS file. Your idea of renaming them won’t work. Converting to MKV joins the various .M2TS files in the correct sequence into a single lossless file.

Also, .M2TS on their own contain no chapter data. MKV files do contain chapters if you rip them.

If you are using Kodi I’d recommend using a single MKV as they are easier to handle and scrape into the Kodi library (database).

I have two NAS. Both Synology. One has all my music (audio only and concert videos). The other movies and TV series. I have them both in my office. My 2 Kodi systems are in other rooms. I only turn on a NAS if I’m using it. Both have auto-off set to 1:00am (in case I forget to turn off manually).

Both NAS stop drives from spinning if a drive is not active for15minutes (drives sleep to save energy/wear when not being used).

If you plan to use Kodi then start tagging your albums now. Also there is a great movie scrapper app (free) that will get all your movie covers and actor images, and other info easily. I can help you get that started. All this shows up in Kodi when you look at the movie section, to select something to play.

Thanks HomerJAU for this. Very good to know as it potentially changes how I was planning to do things.

Hard drive cost here in NZ is killing the NAS idea for now so I'm currently leaning towards multiple 4TB external HDDs played back via the Sony X800/Laser BD player which would end up being about a third the cost of a future-proofed NAS ($8-$10K NZD which based on my guesstimate is over half of what I've spent on the movies I want to backup). I'm well-organised enough to not let this potentially fiddly way of doing things bother me.

The Sony X800/Laser BD players will play back Atmos-only audio as Dolby TrueHD and display subtitles for M2TS's only which are both mission-critical for me. Chapters not so much for movie viewing but I've found with my testing that the Sony X800/Laser BD players can't always use the chapter info from MKV's either (I was planning on MKVing concert BDs to retain the chapter info).

I guess my next steps are just to get a 4TB drive and start backing up, seeing if 1 M2TS is produced for each movie and if not, MKVing those movies instead - or making MKV the default and only M2TSing the outliers. That'll probably reduce the amount of troublesome combos (e.g., non-English film with Atmos-only audio such as Roma which thankfully produces 1 M2TS - it's one of the test back-ups I've done) that get produced and then make me wonder why I didn't just do the NAS/Raspberry Pi approach in the first place!

As always though, any input from QQers is very welcome. Lots of you have done what I want to do already and it's gonna cost me thousands of dollars and take months to complete, so an abundance of advisors will yield the best approach!

A couple of questions for now:
1. Does anyone have any experience with how often movies are split across more than 1 M2TS (e.g., about half the time/hardly ever?)? Perhaps Guy Robinson could chime in here?

2. Does movie-split-over-more-than-one-M2TS affect 4K discs more than BDs (4K's will be larger and so more likely to be split, I'm guessing?). I haven't flashed my BD drive yet (not looking forward to doing so either) so haven't tried backing up any of my 4K discs.

Thanks everyone.