Yes "Fragile": DVD-A/BluRay Out October 30th (Remixed by Steven Wilson)

[rtbluray]

I was worried about that comment as well. I cannot find it right now, but it went on to speak about no further tapes being received, and I was unsure whether he was specifically referring to portions of Tales, or other titles in the Yes catalog....

I'm almost 100% certain that there are not any missing tape issues when it comes to "Tales", and also, when he said that he hasn't received any further tapes, it most likely means that he hasn't been specifically commissioned to mix other Yes albums at this time. There could always be tapes missing for other albums anyway (Steven mentioned that's the case with "Going for the One" apparently), but it's now looking like they probably won't make any decisions on future Yes remixes and reissues until "Fragile" and "Tales" are released.

 

[FVDnz]

If Wilson can remix up to maybe Tormato or Drama then I'll be happy with just that. Now the first two albums on the other hand...

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[Plan9]

I'm almost 100% certain that there are not any missing tape issues when it comes to "Tales", and also, when he said that he hasn't received any further tapes, it most likely means that he hasn't been specifically commissioned to mix other Yes albums at this time. There could always be tapes missing for other albums anyway (Steven mentioned that's the case with "Going for the One" apparently), but it's now looking like they probably won't make any decisions on future Yes remixes and reissues until "Fragile" and "Tales" are released.

I don't think there are missing tapes for GFTO (unless I missed something), it's just that Steven hasn't been hired to remix that one yet.

 

[Ge Someone]

I think that DVDA sales of "Fragile" (along with the continued DVDA sales of "Close to the Edge", "The Yes Album", and "Relayer") will be the determining factor in deciding whether or not "Tales" will get releases on both formats or just Blu-Ray.

Another factor is, it seems that Amazon has lost interest in these CD/DVD-A's and rather offers only the bluray version.
There are differences locally (amazon.co.uk sometimes has them), but I found that amazon.de dropped the DVD-A version of Relayer, although there was a pre-order for it. They just changed those to point at the bluray. Drums and Wires might have suffered a similar fate. If you look now to find the DVD(-A) version on Amazon, it's usually only third party sellers.

That said, I'll go with Headphone Dust or Burning Shed this time.

 

[rtbluray]

I don't think there are missing tapes for GFTO (unless I missed something), it's just that Steven hasn't been hired to remix that one yet.

I think it's both.
Steven said this about the GFTO tapes in the "Further Yes reissues…" thread (Post #3):

I believe that the multitrack tapes for Going for the One are currently not available.

Which could potentially explain why he was only asked to remix the classic 5 that he's been working on.

 

[jimfisheye]

It's really hard to be upset about anything with SW's 5.1 remix of CTTE on my hard drive. This is one of those things that's almost too good to be true already! If someone would have told me 10 years ago that this would happen, I would have responded with something like "Yeah, and the new Jimi Hendrix album is coming out tomorrow too! Rick Wright is on it!"

And that we have Tales to look forward to now too! The original scope was beyond what was possible to produce at the time and I think we're going to hear a reworking on the level of what he did for Crimson's Lizard album. That this is really happening to such an album seems nothing short of a miracle in an industry that caters to amateur plastic constructions like Taylor Swift and Kanye West!

This is all just too good to be true and it keeps getting better!

But... the tapes missing for GFTO is really devastating news. This album was the last of the grandiose productions where the soundscapes themselves were just as huge as the musical arrangements - something which never comes across in the original mixes for this album. You can hear what might have been if you listen carefully and know what the band's instruments actually sound like. I think the original CTTE came closest to capturing some of the scale of the sound itself but obviously we can now hear a lot of nuance that was a bit squashed on the original (there's only so much room in stereo).

GFTO has the same larger than life instrumentation and arrangement (the pipe organ in a cathedral even) and the stereo release (which we only have stepped on versions of at that) doesn't even come close to capturing it.

At least we'll eventually get the HD transfer of the stereo master which should be just as stunning of an improvement as the original Relayer mix was. (Relayer and GFTO were by far the most stepped on releases sonically.)
That's actually all I ever hoped for for the longest time. These 5.1 remixes are on par with Jimi Hendrix coming back from the dead or something.


I bet SW would make some cool surround mixes with an old-school quad mix vibe for those 1st 2 albums sort of like he did with the Tull Benefit album if given the chance. Those original mixes are just polite low budget productions.

 

[Plan9]

At least we'll eventually get the HD transfer of the stereo master which should be just as stunning of an improvement as the original Relayer mix was. (Relayer and GFTO were by far the most stepped on releases sonically.)

If you mean flat transfers of the original mixes, they are already available as Hi-Res downloads on HDTracks and other vendors (except Fragile which is the compressed 2002 DVD-A/2008 SACD mastering, and 90125 which is the original Bob Ludwig vinyl mastering)

http://www.findhdmusic.com/album/going-for-the-one-yes/4545
http://www.findhdmusic.com/album-search/?q=yes
They will be the same flat transfers on the reissues.


For a flat transfer of 90125 you have the Audio Fidelity Gold CD.


Nice post BTW.

 

[jimfisheye]

If you mean flat transfers of the original mixes, they are already available as Hi-Res downloads on HDTracks and other vendors (except Fragile which is the compressed 2002 DVD-A/2008 SACD mastering, and 90125 which is the original Bob Ludwig vinyl mastering)

http://www.findhdmusic.com/album/going-for-the-one-yes/4545
http://www.findhdmusic.com/album-search/?q=yes
They will be the same flat transfers on the reissues.


For a flat transfer of 90125 you have the Audio Fidelity Gold CD.


Nice post BTW.

You sure those aren't the squashed masters as prepared for the CD releases (possibly before the final format conversion to 44.1/16 - or worse, upsampled from 44.1)?

Do you have GFTO?
If so, can you post a screen shot of the waveforms?

I don't believe those are really HD transfers of the masters but I'd love to be proven wrong! It would make me spend money actually.

 

[kvsawilson]

Remember that for quite a while we were told the tapes for ctte were missing but they must have turned up somewhere.

K

 

[ssully]

It's really hard to be upset about anything with SW's 5.1 remix of CTTE on my hard drive. This is one of those things that's almost too good to be true already! If someone would have told me 10 years ago that this would happen, I would have responded with something like "Yeah, and the new Jimi Hendrix album is coming out tomorrow too! Rick Wright is on it!"

And that we have Tales to look forward to now too! The original scope was beyond what was possible to produce at the time and I think we're going to hear a reworking on the level of what he did for Crimson's Lizard album. That this is really happening to such an album seems nothing short of a miracle in an industry that caters to amateur plastic constructions like Taylor Swift and Kanye West!

I don't think Tales needs anything like the rework Lizard needed. But a surround mix will be nice to have.

But... the tapes missing for GFTO is really devastating news.

But SW didn't say they were *missing*.

GFTO has the same larger than life instrumentation and arrangement (the pipe organ in a cathedral even) and the stereo release (which we only have stepped on versions of at that) doesn't even come close to capturing it.

Well, the Audio Fidelity CD is probably pretty close to the master sound, if you believe they were given access to master tapes.

But you can't get blood from a stone. It's just a badly recorded album...it needs a thorough remix, more than any other 1970s Yes album this side of Tormato.

 

[ssully]

Here the Audio Fidelity 'Parallels'. This is old school mastering; there's just one maximum peak (at about 4:55 in the top channel); no evidence of added compression or limiting.

 

[ssully]

You sure those aren't the squashed masters as prepared for the CD releases (possibly before the final format conversion to 44.1/16 - or worse, upsampled from 44.1)?

Do you have GFTO?
If so, can you post a screen shot of the waveforms?

I don't believe those are really HD transfers of the masters but I'd love to be proven wrong! It would make me spend money actually.

What places like HD tracks offer is whatever digital master was sent to them by the record companies. AIUI, they don't actually do analog-to-digital transfers.

So, it might be a high def flat transfer of the master (this would be a logical master digital copy for downstream mastering engineers to work from); or something else.

 

[rtbluray]

"Tales" doesn't need quite as much of a sonic makeover IMO as albums like "Lizard", "Aqualung", or "Relayer", but it's not that far behind those albums in terms of the needs of a sonic overhaul.

But another interesting point about "Tales" is that it's an album that's largely dismissed even by Yes fans, in the same way that some King Crimson fans dismissed "Lizard" or the way some Jethro Tull fans dismissed "A Passion Play", and because of this, Steven allows himself more liberties with a remix than he does with some of the more "classic" albums like "In the Court of the Crimson King" or "Close to the Edge".

That's why I'm very much looking forward to hearing what "Tales" will sound like fully remixed in stereo and surround.
Not only that, but I'm looking forward to seeing what the reaction will be like from both surround fans and Yes fans alike, as it should be THE definitive mix of what Steven has already said is one of his favorites in the Yes catalogue.

 

[ssully]

"Tales" doesn't need quite as much of a sonic makeover IMO as albums like "Lizard", "Aqualung", or "Relayer", but it's not that far behind those albums in terms of the needs of a sonic overhaul.

Sorry, I disagree. Then again, I didn't think Relayer needed an 'overhaul' either. Just a bit of freshening up/clarifying -- removing layers of tape noise. I always liked the original *mixes* of both, and still prefer Offord's mixes to SW's.

One problem with Tales was that it took some searching to find good low-generation LP and CD mastering ...until they finally got it mostly right in the Rhino slipcase release (though my go-to is still the similar sounding Japanese HDCD version, decoded). So it had this reputation forever of being 'muddy' sounding and such.

But another interesting point about "Tales" is that it's an album that's largely dismissed even by Yes fans,

I've been deeply involved in Yes fandom for decades now...I currently curate the 'Forgotten Yesterdays' website -- and I can testify that that is not true. If anything the Yesfan love for Tales has *grown* since the 1970s.

in the same way that some King Crimson fans dismissed "Lizard"

Not even close.

 

[rtbluray]

Sorry, I disagree. Then again, I didn't think Relayer needed an 'overhaul' either. Just a bit of freshening up/clarifying -- removing layers of tape noise. I always liked the original *mixes* of both, and still prefer Offord's mixes to SW's.

One problem with Tales was that it took some searching to find good low-generation LP and CD mastering ...until they finally got it mostly right in the Rhino slipcase release (though my go-to is still the similar sounding Japanese HDCD version, decoded). So it had this reputation forever of being 'muddy' sounding and such.

I've been deeply involved in Yes fandom for decades now...I currently curate the 'Forgotten Yesterdays' website -- and I can testify that that is not true. If anything the Yesfan love for Tales has *grown* since the 1970s.

Not even close.

Well, then let's agree to disagree! (On some points)
I've never liked the original stereo mixes of "Tales", "Relayer", "Going for the One", and (especially) "Tormato", so I have always hoped that modern remixes could help those albums out. I felt that "The Gates of Delirium" and "To Be Over" were largely improved by the new mixes, but the same can't be said for "Sound Chaser", a song that I never really liked to begin with, so there's that…

And as for "Tales'" place in the Yes cannon, my view are not just my own, but they are also views shared by Steven Wilson himself, as he reiterated many of those points when we briefly discussed his remixing work on "Tales" when I spoke with him on the phone for my Master's Final Project last May.
But I would agree with you in that "Tales" has become more appreciated over time, but I still don't think it's appreciated to the same extent that albums like "The Yes Album", "Fragile", and "Close to the Edge" are. Plus I don't think it's quite as marginalized as "Lizard" is in relation to the King Crimson catalogue, but it certainly took almost 10 full listens for me to really appreciate it as a work of art.

(BTW I had no idea you were the curator of 'Forgotten Yesterdays'. I love that site!)

 

[ssully]

And as for "Tales'" place in the Yes cannon, my view are not just my own, but they are also views shared by Steven Wilson himself, as he reiterated many of those points when we briefly discussed his remixing work on "Tales" when I spoke with him on the phone for my Master's Final Project last May.

Not sure what your point is. I'm not surprised SW's take on the Yes canon is different from mine. He was just 12 years old when the 1970s ended.

But I would agree with you in that "Tales" has become more appreciated over time, but I still don't think it's appreciated to the same extent that albums like "The Yes Album", "Fragile", and "Close to the Edge" are.

Sure, but that doesn't mean many, many fans don't consider it a ...*masterwork*.

 

[Ninecats]

I know a lot of people who absolutely love The Yes Album, CTTE and Going For The One but never really 'got' "Tales...". That seems to go for most Yes fans to be honest. And to be even more honest, it's not so hard to understand. Even though I've been given Tales... repeated spins (being the music nerd I am) I can't really crave that of other people. "Hey, play it fifty more times and you grow to like it...".

 

[FVDnz]

Tales is a sublime double record. Hope the remix comes out sooner than what will likely be October next year.

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[ssully]

I know a lot of people who absolutely love The Yes Album, CTTE and Going For The One but never really 'got' "Tales...". That seems to go for most Yes fans to be honest. And to be even more honest, it's not so hard to understand. Even though I've been given Tales... repeated spins (being the music nerd I am) I can't really crave that of other people. "Hey, play it fifty more times and you grow to like it...".

And I know a lot who love Tales and Relayer and think Going for the One was a decline in quality from those. (shrug)

 

[rtbluray]

Not sure what your point is. I'm not surprised SW's take on the Yes canon is different from mine. He was just 12 years old when the 1970s ended.

Sure, but that doesn't mean many, many fans don't consider it a ...*masterwork*.

My overall point is that many people (including myself and SW) feel that a proper remix and reissue of "Tales" could help to give it a reappraisal amongst both its' fans and harshest critics.
Plus because many (including myself and SW) feel that it's not as good of a stereo mix to begin with, more liberties can be taken when remixing it that wouldn't be needed or appropriate for albums that already sound very good to begin with, like "The Yes Album" and "Close to the Edge".
Finally, if anyone thinks the original mix is great as is and doesn't need to be improved upon, it's always there to listen to instead of the forthcoming remix.