Atmos vs 5.1

[LuvMyQuad]

Indeed, which is why I'm surprised that some discs also have an AC3 track you can select from the menus. That means two AC3 tracks on the disc, why?

It could be the same track

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Indeed, which is why I'm surprised that some discs also have an AC3 track you can select from the menus. That means two AC3 tracks on the disc, why?

I can't say I've seen this on a Blu-ray Audio disc. However Blu-ray movie discs often offer multiple lossy Dolby Digital tracks for different languages.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

For anyone curious, I created multiple mixdowns of a song that is 5:04 for the sake of comparing the sizes:

TrueHD Atmos = 227MB
---------------------------
TrueHD stereo = 62MB
TrueHD 5.1 = 152MB
TrueHD 7.1 = 199MB
AC3 (640 kb/s) = 23.1MB

Out of interest... What software's did you use to create these encodes?

 

[Owen Smith]

It could be the same track

They could be bitwise identical, but they may have to be two separate copies. Nothing I've seen says one of them can point at the other.

 

[Methuselah’s Grandpa]

Out of interest... What software's did you use to create these encodes?

DME (Dolby Media Encoder)

 

[Nyad]

I’m no expert, but I doubt it.

I have noticed that my quadio discs can start in audio modes that are inconsistent. Right off the bat I can’t state which, but my Oppo 105 can show me which stream is being decoded. Not to mention the on-screen display on the quadio itself. That leads me to believe that the disc has “default” information on it that the disc player follows.

I have a thing with outputting Quad into my Sony STR-DN1080 (budget 5.1.2 Atmos receiver) from my Oppo 103, where the Sony won't recognise the Quad and defaults to stereo unless there is a silent center channel present, very annoying

 

[Methuselah’s Grandpa]

Ok, I went back and created one last encode (5.1 448 kb/s ac3).

AC3 (448 kb/s) = 16.2MB
AC3 (640 kb/s) = 23.1MB
TrueHD stereo = 62MB
TrueHD 5.1 = 152MB
TrueHD 7.1 = 199MB
TrueHD Atmos = 227MB
---------------------------
...considering these file sizes, it would seem to me that the TrueHD 5.1 & the TrueHD stereo presentation are part of the TrueHD Atmos mix & not stored separately. There's only 28MB difference between the TrueHD 7.1 file and the TrueHD Atmos file.

The 4 sub-streams of a TrueHD Atmos file would appear to include the 7.1 mix (199MB), the lossy 5.1 core(16 to 23MB), & the Atmos metadata but there's just not enough room leftover for anything else stored separately.


The efficiency of TrueHD Atmos is actually quite remarkable. I wish I was smart enough to understand how exactly the codec is able to keep track of all those separate mixed elements & objects while not technically storing all of them in their own separate channels. To be able to do all of that & then offer up different lossless and lossy presentations of that mix depending on the playback scenario and hardware in such a reasonable file size is impressive.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Ok, I went back and created one last encode (5.1 448 kb/s ac3).

AC3 (448 kb/s) = 16.2MB
AC3 (640 kb/s) = 23.1MB
TrueHD stereo = 62MB
TrueHD 5.1 = 152MB
TrueHD 7.1 = 199MB
TrueHD Atmos = 227MB
---------------------------
...considering these file sizes, it would seem to me that the TrueHD 5.1 & the TrueHD stereo presentation are part of the TrueHD Atmos mix & not stored separately. There's only 28MB difference between the TrueHD 7.1 file and the TrueHD Atmos file.

The 4 sub-streams of a TrueHD Atmos file would appear to include the 7.1 mix (199MB), the lossy 5.1 core(16 to 23MB), & the Atmos metadata but there's just not enough room leftover for anything else stored separately.


The efficiency of TrueHD Atmos is actually quite remarkable. I wish I was smart enough to understand how exactly the codec is able to keep track of all those separate mixed elements & objects while not technically storing all of them in their own separate channels. To be able to do all of that & then offer up different lossless and lossy presentations of that mix depending on the playback scenario and hardware in such a reasonable file size is impressive.

On disc, I would think the TrueHD 7.1 is contained in the TrueHD 7.1 Atmos. The 28MB difference in size being megadata related. No?

On disc, a TrueHD 5.1 is only a sometimes thing. Mixers like Steven Wilson and Bruce Soord usually include them, and if it is a re-release that already had a dedecated 5.1, that can show up too. These mixes are not usually included in the 7.1 group of substreams. They are often different mixes entirely.

 

[Owen Smith]

The 4 sub-streams of a TrueHD Atmos file would appear to include the 7.1 mix (199MB), the lossy 5.1 core(16 to 23MB), & the Atmos metadata but there's just not enough room leftover for anything else stored separately.

If we assume 16MB for the AC3 that leaves only 12MB for the Atmos metadata which isn't a lot.

The efficiency of TrueHD Atmos is actually quite remarkable. I wish I was smart enough to understand how exactly the codec is able to keep track of all those separate mixed elements & objects while not technically storing all of them in their own separate channels. To be able to do all of that & then offer up different lossless and lossy presentations of that mix depending on the playback scenario and hardware in such a reasonable file size is impressive.

I suspect there is no lossless 5.1 or stereo at all, and the TrueHD decoder generates them on the fly by downmixing the 7.1 TrueHD.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I suspect there is no lossless 5.1 or stereo at all, and the TrueHD decoder generates them on the fly by downmixing the 7.1 TrueHD.

If that is the case, explain to me how I can rip the disc with makeMKV, choosing only to rip the stereo substream or only the 5.1 substream. The resulting file rip will play fine. I usualy convert the mkv to flac. The resulting audio is all there. Nothing is lost. There was no TrueHD decoder involved in this process. What accomplished the decoding you say needs to take place?

 

[barfle]

Regarding your comment on the different languages, ...that's completely different. Those are indeed, separate audio streams, ...the "on-the-fly" comments that LuvMyQuad was talking about are "sub-streams" of the TrueHD codec

OK, I'm glad I don't have to figure that one out. I certainly missed an important chunk of that conversation.

 

[barfle]

I have a thing with outputting Quad into my Sony STR-DN1080 (budget 5.1.2 Atmos receiver) from my Oppo 103, where the Sony won't recognise the Quad and defaults to stereo unless there is a silent center channel present, very annoying

I'm about to break into the Atmos world. I just ordered a Marantz 7706 prepro and an Emotiva 6-channel amp.

I intend to continue to use my Oppo's DACs for 5.1, switching to the HDMI for Atmos. We'll see how it all works, 'cause it just might end up being a nightmare.

 

[MidiMagic]

The fact that all of these different coding systems exist and conflict just tells me that there are too many systems.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

The fact that all of these different coding systems exist and conflict just tells me that there are too many systems.

Conflict? This whole thread is about how compatable it all is.

 

[kfbkfb]

DME (Dolby Media Encoder)

Would it be possible to encode 7.1.4 Atmos, 1kHz at each of the 11 locations in turn (.1 not needed) and then report where each of these 11 locations ends up appearing in the Dolby Digital 5.1 downmix (using the downmix defaults)?


Kirk Bayne

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Ok, I went back and created one last encode (5.1 448 kb/s ac3).

AC3 (448 kb/s) = 16.2MB
AC3 (640 kb/s) = 23.1MB
TrueHD stereo = 62MB
TrueHD 5.1 = 152MB
TrueHD 7.1 = 199MB
TrueHD Atmos = 227MB

With regard to the lossless encodes you haven't mentioned their sample-rate or bit-depth (but I'm assuming 24 for the latter).

Out of interest... Can you try running your 'Dolby TrueHD stereo' file through an application called MediaInfo (which must be set to text mode) and post what it reports 'in full' as a text file.

Cheers

 

[Owen Smith]

If that is the case, explain to me how I can rip the disc with makeMKV, choosing only to rip the stereo substream or only the 5.1 substream. The resulting file rip will play fine. I usualy convert the mkv to flac. The resulting audio is all there. Nothing is lost. There was no TrueHD decoder involved in this process. What accomplished the decoding you say needs to take place?

How do you know there is no TrueHD decoder in makeMKV? Other than that possibility I have no explanation.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

How do you know there is no TrueHD decoder in makeMKV? Other than that possibility I have no explanation.

MakeMKV does not offer any decoding or encoding functionality. It decrypts, de-muxes and re-muxes the discs native streams.

 

[Owen Smith]

MakeMKV does not offer any decoding or encoding functionality. It decrypts, de-muxes and re-muxes the discs native streams.

And how do you know that? Is that what the documentation says, or have you looked at the source code? Not disputing what you say, just asking for your source.

Edit: thinking about it, if MakeMKV can pull a stereo, 5.1 or 7.1 track out of a bunch of TrueHD substreams that rely on and cross reference each other, it must be doing some level of TrueHD decoding to understand all that substream information.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

And how do you know that? Is that what the documentation says, or have you looked at the source code? Not disputing what you say, just asking for your source.

I've been using it for over 15 years. Since first came out... I know!