AVR chops off beginning of ATMOS Tracks (SEE MY WORKAROUND IN POST #41)

[ar surround]

In another thread, @ArmyOfQuad wrote regarding the Atmos layer on The Harmony Codex blu-ray:

What I don't understand is why some people can't figure out how to master a blu-ray so that it doesn't chop off the beginning of every song from tripping the receiver into resyning atmos. The music and mix were good, but with listening to it being such a frustrating experience, I probably won't give it another listen.

Is there something that can be done within the set up of the AVR to prevent this 'dead zone' that cuts off the first second or so of an Atmos track? I happen to have a Marantz SR7013. This does NOT happen with well authored blu-rays; but it happens all the time with ripped MKV files that are separated into chapters. And as ArmyOfQuad wrote, it happened to him with The Harmony Codex blu-ray.

I have Googled the issue, but all I can find are complaints about Atmos drop outs during a song. I haven't found anything about problems with the initial 'handshake.'

 

[LuvMyQuad]

In another thread, @ArmyOfQuad wrote regarding the Atmos layer on The Harmony Codex blu-ray:

Is there something that can be done within the set up of the AVR to prevent this 'dead zone' that cuts off the first second or so of an Atmos track? I happen to have a Marantz SR7015. This does NOT happen with well authored blu-rays; but it happens all the time with ripped MKV files that are separated into chapters. And as ArmyOfQuad wrote, it happened to him with The Harmony Codex blu-ray.

I use Kodi for file playback. You can set it to lock on to the initial format and not change it going forward even if the format of the following tracks change. You can try that, but I'm not sure it will work. I know of no way to play MKV chapters gaplessly. There is supposed to be a way to keep the MKV whole but use a playlist to select tracks to keep it gapless. I haven't mastered that yet. I stopped splitting chapters on MKV files with video like concert videos. Kodi does allow you to skip forward by chapter. For Atmos files I convert to m4a, which Kodi also plays.

I know of no AVR settings that will affect this.

I'm interested in finding a solution for this as well. I do think it's a limitation in the equipment not detecting the streamed format quickly enough.

 

[Albert Dagger]

I use Kodi for file playback. You can set it to lock on to the initial format and not change it going forward even if the format of the following tracks change. You can try that, but I'm not sure it will work. I know of no way to play MKV chapters gaplessly. There is supposed to be a way to keep the MKV whole but use a playlist to select tracks to keep it gapless. I haven't mastered that yet. I stopped splitting chapters on MKV files with video like concert videos. Kodi does allow you to skip forward by chapter. For Atmos files I convert to m4a, which Kodi also plays.

I know of no AVR settings that will affect this.

I'm interested in finding a solution for this as well. I do think it's a limitation in the equipment not detecting the streamed format quickly enough.

What I do is to convert the Mkv to Mka and play these back with Kodi. You have to prepare a cue sheet with MMH before preparing the Mia file with no chapters. Also, the cue sheet is best in frames than milliseconds for correct track split. This way you can have gapless playback. For Kodi, it’s like reading a single file so there are no transitions.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

What I do is to convert the Mkv to Mka and play these back with Kodi. You have to prepare a cue sheet with MMH before preparing the Mia file with no chapters. Also, the cue sheet is best in frames than milliseconds for correct track split. This way you can have gapless playback. For Kodi, it’s like reading a single file so there are no transitions.

Does it only work for MKa?

 

[mandrix]

I often listen to IAA MKV Atmos downloads in PowerDVD. These are of course stand-alone and not split by me. I don't hear any dropouts.
Further, I notice that when an Atmos track is played, my AVR will display the dialnorm for the first track. It does not do that for each track with the separate MKV files played in any order, all selected at once for playback in PowerDVD nor with VLC.

On some BD's, I wonder if they introduce a few seconds of silence at the beginning to help the AVR kick into Atmos mode? Don't know. The HDMI handshake thing is well known and seems to differ between AVR's.

 

[sjcorne]

Is there something that can be done within the set up of the AVR to prevent this 'dead zone' that cuts off the first second or so of an Atmos track? I happen to have a Marantz SR7015. This does NOT happen with well authored blu-rays; but it happens all the time with ripped MKV files that are separated into chapters. And as ArmyOfQuad wrote, it happened to him with The Harmony Codex blu-ray.

In the case of The Harmony Codex, an authoring error is definitely to blame - nearly all the chapter markers are improperly placed, so the end of one song is at the beginning of the next.

 

[marpow]

Interesting topic, I'll pipe in with my experience.
I have experienced the delay in the subject, more so with Apple4K streaming.
I have experienced the delay in my personal digital files, all types, but only when I am just moving too fast going thru songs.
That said, my set up plays perfectly with no delay.
Blu Ray Atmos, I rip using Make MKV, this gives me what I call the root file. Next, I split into chapters using Music Media Helper (MMH), I select the tab called Select & Rename Concerts.
This now splits the root file into chapters. Then I use the upper selection, Music Brainz for tagging names of tracks, then a final process of tagging Artist, Album, etc. If needed I can produce screen shots.

That's the ripping, pretty easy. This next part is where my listening situation will possibly differ than others.
Playback:
I use JRiver as my player, a dedicated PC, that for ATMOS, is HDMI out to my McIntosh AVR. In JRiver I have set up a listening Zone that I call ATMOS that reads this VIDEO FILE and when playback occurs through the AVR, comes out perfect, Dolby ATMOS.
Now my experience with MKV gapless or non gapless.
A MKV file played back from JRiver is designated by JRiver, not me, as a video file. These MKV files do not playback as gapless, I keep hoping JRiver will figure out.
But the workaround is to not split into chapters, just use the original MKV root file, then it plays back as one unit, gapless, like Abbey Road, etc. Also in MOST cases you will get the video, so if having on screen capability like I do, I will see what song I am on from the actual video as the cursor moves thru tracks or the video changes with name.
Examples are non gapless albums the recent IAA MKV ATMOS albums I have purchased have exact same background video, just names of songs change.
Another example, is the recent The Pineapple Thief, How Did We Find Our Way, the two Blu Rays where too maxed out, so after rip, there is no video content. The selection called 8 Days Later, 12 tracks, I did split into chapters, and there is a tiny bit of out of his window background street noise, that is gapless, that I decided to sacrifice so I could see the names of the songs.
As all things audio, nothing is ever perfect, but there are ways to work around and get what you want.
Just a reminder, I am talking about a MKV video file in JRiver. I can split into chapters as a MKA Audio file and JRiver will play gapless just as well with FLAC audio files, but I prefer the ATMOS to always be a MKV video file, even though rarely I have to make a decision/sacrifice.

Quick Note: If using JRiver and want a MKV video file to playback gapless, going HDMI out from your PC, use Make MKV for Blu Ray rip and only use the root file rip, do not split into chapters. If the songs are not gapless, always split into chapters and tag as needed.

 

[JohnN]

Is there something that can be done within the set up of the AVR to prevent this 'dead zone' that cuts off the first second or so of an Atmos track?
I set my Yamaha AVRs to STRAIGHT mode for no beginning cut offs.

 

[mandrix]

There certainly seems to be a dearth of competent BD authors.
But since I hardly ever split up a BD I don't have any audio problems. I just keep it in .iso format for playback on the pc.

 

[jimfisheye]

Short version: Don't split your Atmos encoded files into chapters!

I don't know the root issue yet but I imagine it's similar to trying to split a video file not on a key frame. If you do that you discover the video stays black screen until the first key frame it finally gets.

It's about 50/50 if a chapter split Atmos file is going to just play like nothing is wrong or not play at all. (Yes, sometimes the chapter split file doesn't play at all!)

I'm keeping my Atmos rips as whole album single files until I convert them back to wav (wavpack) at present.

Atmos is copy protection. It fails safe to not playing if there's any question.

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

It's absolutely disgusting that we are STILL dealing with bullshit like this! With the amount of technology and the possibilities it offers, to design something that is so fundamentally flawed is just pure grade A laziness. It shows a lack of caring! There's just no excuse.

On top of that - the technology absolutely offers methods and practices that can avoid these flaws. These are details that one MUST pay attention to. These flaws are no secret - anyone releasing music that cares about their paying and supporting customers should know better, and know they need to ensure they are sending their products to competent people to author things properly, and then check on it, and subject the product to proper quality control. At this point, I can't help but feel ripped off and robbed by Steven Wilson for spending my money, and being sold a disc I essentially cannot enjoy!

I can tell you, I won't be purchasing another of his albums until he rights this. Which I expect he will not.

 

[fredblue]

the standalone Blu-ray credits authoring to Richard Ayres at Visual Data Media, maybe worth reaching out to them somehow?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Short version: Don't split your Atmos encoded files into chapters!

I don't know the root issue yet but I imagine it's similar to trying to split a video file not on a key frame. If you do that you discover the video stays black screen until the first key frame it finally gets.

It's about 50/50 if a chapter split Atmos file is going to just play like nothing is wrong or not play at all. (Yes, sometimes the chapter split file doesn't play at all!)

I'm keeping my Atmos rips as whole album single files until I convert them back to wav (wavpack) at present.

Atmos is copy protection. It fails safe to not playing if there's any question.

I'm my experience with my system, splitting Atmos files that have no need for gapless and video playback works fine. But I don't play Atmos files via MKV. I convert the MKV to m4a and play those. Both MKV and m4a are lossless container formats but m4a is fully tagable. I'll have to look and see if I can test a ripped atmos album that does have gapless tracks and watch for a glitch at the track change. I'm not sure if I have one for the test

Am I missing something by not saving these as MKV where the video is unneeded? When video is required, I keep them as full length MKV. I've tried splitting them with poor results. IIRC there is a video freeze and an audio studder, but the AVP never lost the thread on the format.

 

[jimfisheye]

Pick your battles I guess?

They made a copy protection format that ties media to a hardware decoder purchase. But they also extended surround with 4 more channels. And people are actually making mixes in the 7.1.4 format and releasing them. 20 years from now they will still be around and anyone can set up a system by the book and listen to them. Calibrating a cartridge on a turntable and decoding SQ, QS, CD-4, etc is more work and more difficult and for less return.

You can find some much more salty rants about this copy protection system from me if you prefer! I'm sure there will be more. I'm trying to at least include instructions to work around whatever I'm going off about.

I agree that the bs is bs but my glass is more than half full and there are some wild 12 channel mixes to hear!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

It's absolutely disgusting that we are STILL dealing with bullshit like this! With the amount of technology and the possibilities it offers, to design something that is so fundamentally flawed is just pure grade A laziness. It shows a lack of caring! There's just no excuse.

On top of that - the technology absolutely offers methods and practices that can avoid these flaws. These are details that one MUST pay attention to. These flaws are no secret - anyone releasing music that cares about their paying and supporting customers should know better, and know they need to ensure they are sending their products to competent people to author things properly, and then check on it, and subject the product to proper quality control. At this point, I can't help but feel ripped off and robbed by Steven Wilson for spending my money, and being sold a disc I essentially cannot enjoy!

I can tell you, I won't be purchasing another of his albums until he rights this. Which I expect he will not.

Mostly agree. I find quality control has slipped significantly since COVID across many different product segments. Why would music manufacture be any different?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

You can find some much more salty rants about this copy protection system from me if you prefer! I'm sure there will be more. I'm trying to at least include instructions to work around whatever I'm going off about.

I agree that the bs is bs but my glass is more than half full and there are some wild 12 channel mixes to hear!

Dude, I've read most of the rants. No need to reproduce them here. But how different is it from creating CD-4 and requiring a special decoder to get it to play on a turntable? They both lock the content behind a proprietary technology.

There are some extremely worthy Atmos mixes, no doubt. Its worth finding out how best to rip and archive them. Im not going back to disks

 

[mandrix]

Beating a dead horse, but again: .iso format to archive. ...and for playback it works fine for me. I don't do playlists.

 

[Blackwood]

Beating a dead horse, but again: .iso format to archive. ...and for playback it works fine for me. I don't do playlists.

What are you using to play back your ISOs?

 

[mandrix]

I've tried playing

What are you using to play back your ISOs?

VLC, PowerDVD.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

I actually don't have an Atmos setup yet... interesting to hear people having these issues. I would suppose that not having a single continuous stream may screw up the detection of Atmos...but then what about all those Atmos Blu-ray movies that use seamless playback (where the film is divided into many small M2TS files instead of a large one) which seem to bitstream absolutely fine on hardware? Maybe the Java functionality is doing something in the background? I could absolutely code some sort of buffer, I think some Disney Blu-ray Discs used a buffer trick to exceed the allowed bitrate on some Blu-ray Discs...

I think the problem (at least with separated tracks, I have no idea about misauthoring on the new Steven Wilson BD) is the software...as @mandrix has mentioned, PowerDVD doesn't seem to choke on separated files... we all know the bitstreaming and TrueHD decoding for all these open-source softwares are completely reverse-engineered and incomplete...that may be an issue.