"Cogging" Discussion

[Sonik Wiz]

Been working with this some doing up-mixes; and getting the correct phantom center fade ins & outs is tricky. Using "Adjustable Fade" in Audacity, and it takes a lot of trial and error to get it sounding smooth. Mid-fade Adjust (%) for both up and down is critical. Still trying to get a handle on it for 5.1, and of course every situation is different.

Adjustable Fade
This has a dialog box where you can choose the shape of the fade in or fade out to be applied. You can also create "partial" fades to and from other than silence and original volume. An example of this might be a fade in from 20% of the original volume to 80% of the original volume. The "Handy Presets" at the bottom offer a choice of six pairs of fade in or fade out shapes, fading between silence and original volume.

Accessed by: Effect > Adjustable Fade...

View attachment 78777

Try mid-fade adjust at .707...

 

[sjcorne]

And tho there certainly some rough pans to be heard ( Santana: Abraxas, anybody?) nothing that is a chronic problem.

I'd agree that on a lot of early quad remixes (Santana, The Guess Who, etc) it seems the around-the-room pans just weren't executed well, perhaps because they were done by hand with a joystick contraption instead of with panning automation in a DAW. The swirling horns in "Everybody's Everything" from Santana III sound schizophrenic even on the new SACD reissue. Some of the later-70s titles do it better, for example the spinning thumb piano in "Drum Song" from EWF's Open Our Eyes quad mix sounds great on the AF SACD remaster.

A recent example of a well-executed 360-degree pan that comes to mind for me would be the song "Western Promise" from Ultravox's Vienna 5.1 mix, the synthesizer line starting at around 4:40 slowly moves counter-clockwise from the front left speaker back around to front right with little perceptible loss of power in the side-walls.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Try mid-fade adjust at .707...

Ohhhh S. dubya!

I do believe it all pertains to each set up; as my speakers may not have the same imaging as someone else's and distances of everything throws another spanner in the works.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Try mid-fade adjust at .707...

Definitely not .787, it's being held up by the FAA

 

[DuncanS]

Definitely not .787, it's being held up by the FAA

The song for 787s, Hawkwind's You Know You're Only Dreaming (1996 Remaster) - YouTube

 

[Sal1950]

Whether I perceive front to back cogging or not, what I find far more annoying is sound panned from a main speaker to the center speaker. -----
Just a thought.

Absolutely! And a subject I've harped on here a number of times now.
A partial solution to the "cogging" issue and what AR describes here is a very simple thing (well kinda simple LOL). Firstly, no matter what anyone says, for best results identical speakers in all locations is a near absolute requirement. What 2ch audiophile would run different speakers in the L & R positions and then expect excellent imaging results?
Next examine the rooms sound characteristics at each position. Does one corner introduce large amounts of reflection while others are very dead? My open floor plan living room, kitchen, etc; has driven me absolutely nuts attempting to get things equalized to a reasonable extent. My left side is a wall of windows, while the right side is open to the kitchen for another 10ft. Making the left wall as dead as possible by covering all the window area with 2" thick rockwool sound absorbing material has gone a long way towards balancing the L-R room sound, much more has been and is being done. TBH none of this could be considered to have a good WAF.
Thankfully modern DRC has given us a tool to that can help a lot, but there remains much more to be examined and addressed by the owner.
There is a fortunate few of us who have the budget, etc; to scratch build a listening room and end up with a near perfect listening environment. The rest of us have to live with what we got and need to do a lot of homework, then roll up our sleeves and put a plan into effect to make things as best as we can.
Good Luck

 

[ssully]

When it's set up correctly, each instrument is placed discretely in place where it was in the mix, and there is no phantom center channel. Vocals and bass tend to be in the center of the mix, appearing exactly where they were placed.

That's what a phantom center is. Any 'center' content perceived when there is only a left and right output channel is phantom.

 

[par4ken]

I'd agree that on a lot of early quad remixes (Santana, The Guess Who, etc) it seems the around-the-room pans just weren't executed well, perhaps because they were done by hand with a joystick contraption instead of with panning automation in a DAW. The swirling horns in "Everybody's Everything" from Santana III sound schizophrenic even on the new SACD reissue. Some of the later-70s titles do it better, for example the spinning thumb piano in "Drum Song" from EWF's Open Our Eyes quad mix sounds great on the AF SACD remaster.

Yes some of the pans are rather unsmooth due partially due to the limitations of the encode/decode system. In the case of the Guess Who remember that the mix was intended primarily for use in automobiles via Q8 tapes. I think those pans are great! Once again they are not as effective (as smooth) in a larger room but they were just intended to show off quads abilities and to wow the listener! To that end they are very effective!

The pan in "Birds Of Fire' sounds great via the SQ version. I still can't believe that both SACD releases had the channels reversed!

I love the cracking whip effect that circles the room on Aerosmith "Back In The Saddle"!

Rather cool to note that full panning via EV-4 was not possible. The Lighthouse track "One Fine Morning" has some rather odd "jumping" from track to track as a substitute for actual panning. While an interesting attempt it is also a bit annoying!

 

[par4ken]

This (overblown) cogging thing and all the talk of panning reminds me of SCTV where they often liked to spoof 3D by moving an object in and out! Very hilarious indeed. I really miss John Candy's comedy! The same for panning effects, rather over the top attempts at wowing the listener. The same goes for those early ping pong stereo demonstration records! For the most part is there really a need for such exaggerated sound effects in a modern music mix? Although much fun perhaps they have passed their prime!

 

[ar surround]

Rather cool to note that full panning via EV-4 was not possible. The Lighthouse track "One Fine Morning" has some rather odd "jumping" from track to track as a substitute for actual panning. While an interesting attempt it is also a bit annoying!

This is an aside comment: For any of you who have Dolby Surround capability, try playing the stereo version of the track One Fine Morning. It's really great with Dolby Surround. Sounds as if the song was mixed for the codec decades before it existed.

 

[Sal1950]

This is an aside comment: For any of you who have Dolby Surround capability, try playing the stereo version of the track One Fine Morning. It's really great with Dolby Surround. Sounds as if the song was mixed for the codec decades before it existed.

I'll have to try that out.
Dolby Surround has come a long way the last few years as an upmixer. I used to mainly use Auro 3D but I've switched the last year or two finding Dolby doing a mostly better. The best news is we can switch from one to the other with a click and see what suits any particular album better.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Ok so both @ar surround and @par4ken have mentioned the album One Fine Morning by Lighthouse. I have never heard of the band so same goes for the album or title track. But I know when to pay attention to stuff like this. I'm sure I could sample this on YouTube but I'd rather have better quality to play around with and enjoy. I can't find high res non-compressed anywhere. But if anyone has a tip where to get it I would be most appreciative!

I guess I could actually look for the CD....

 

[LB-V]

Well, it's not what you asked for, and I have a feeling you do not mess with Apple, it is in Apple Music as their "lossless" compressed. Doesn't qualify , does it?

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Well, it's not what you asked for, and I have a feeling you do not mess with Apple, it is in Apple Music as their "lossless" compressed. Doesn't qualify , does it?

View attachment 78830

Thanks for checking! Yeah I'm just a plain 'ol Windows/Android kinda guy. I found it on Amazon but I think that is lossy compressed. Looking for something like HD tracks (they dont have it) where a simple download does the trick.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Thanks for checking! Yeah I'm just a plain 'ol Windows/Android kinda guy. I found it on Amazon but I think that is lossy compressed. Looking for something like HD tracks (they dont have it) where a simple download does the trick.

I believe Qobuz may have it.

 

[par4ken]

Ok so both @ar surround and @par4ken have mentioned the album One Fine Morning by Lighthouse. I have never heard of the band so same goes for the album or title track. But I know when to pay attention to stuff like this. I'm sure I could sample this on YouTube but I'd rather have better quality to play around with and enjoy. I can't find high res non-compressed anywhere. But if anyone has a tip where to get it I would be most appreciative!

I guess I could actually look for the CD....

Get the UK release the Japanese one is very compressed but it does have the the original artwork. And by the way all the Lighthouse albums were great! I'm surprised that they were unknown in Kansas? "Thoughts of Moving On" is almost as good as "One Fine Morning" and also has the cool artwork.

There is a 5.1 DVD release "40 Years of Sunny Days". It's not bad even without original singer Bob McBride, his replacement sounds a lot like him. Sadly Bob McBride died in 1998 and Skip Prokop in 2017.

The song "One Fine Morning" is on also on the Maple Music LP that I mentioned in the RIP Susan Jacks thread.

The EV-4 version is on the quad compilation LP "Supersonic Quadraphonic Sound Spectacular" (Interfusion – LQ34950)

An equally great track "Hat's Off (To The Stranger)" is on "4 Channel Musical Sampler" (Evolution-16501 & Interfusion-SITFL-934460)

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/lighthouse-emc

 

[MidiMagic]

Rather cool to note that full panning via EV-4 was not possible. The Lighthouse track "One Fine Morning" has some rather odd "jumping" from track to track as a substitute for actual panning. While an interesting attempt it is also a bit annoying!

The original EV-4 encoder was not able to pan anything between the back speakers.

I was able to pan a complete circle for EV-4 with my encoder design. But when played through an EV decoder, the sides cog. When played through a DS decoder, they do not.

A few points on cogging in no particular order…

2. Midi says even discrete has cogging. This may be to incorrect mixing in production. Now in a simple stereo example a sound panned properly left to right will also be at -3dB in the middle, like stated above. Using stereo gear for quad mixing there’s no guaranty that a proper pan pot might be used front to back. It could be just as easily a sound in left back faded out and faded in on left front which would not maintain constant power or be a smooth pan.

ANY surround system has cogging unless something is done to eliminate it.

It is hard to do anything in the mix to eliminate cogging.

The following things have removed cogging:

- Using Dolby Surround to decode the recording - the delay of the surround channel and sending it to both sides makes the images coalesce.
- The Dynaco diamond really has only one speaker on each side.
- Sitting between the back speakers of a 5.1 system reduces the cogging.
- In some cases, my Surrfield mic prevents cogging.

 

[par4ken]

- Sitting between the back speakers of a 5.1 system reduces the cogging.

That is one point that I have continuously been trying to emphasize.

 

[MidiMagic]

That is one point that I have continuously been trying to emphasize.

It also reduces content behind the listener.

 

[par4ken]

It also reduces content behind the listener.

Many people don't like sound coming from behind their heads, a complaint often made by stereo supporters. I like the effect either way but in a normal listening room it's much easier to accommodate speakers with the couch against the back wall and speakers off to the sides! I don't always sit in the sweet spot either and still enjoy my surround regardless of seating position!