kap'n krunch
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
I really don't care how long it is delayed...I WON'T CANCEL THE PURCHASE!!!!!...it's a freakin' dream come true.. TRILOGY IN SURROUND!!!!!
Go Jakko!
Go Jakko!
ELP Emerson Lake & Palmer Cataloge in 5.1 Surround
- Thread starter tarkusnj
- Start date
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There is really nothing to lose by keeping your order open...they don't charge until they ship...
...besides one's patience.
@:
............until the Credit Card bill arrives! With all the pre-orders, I think February is going to beat December's bill on that score :yikes
Haven't checked this thread in a while and was wanting to ask some questions about ELP surround happenings
1) Has their been any mention of the new BSS 5.1 being available as a standalone release, or at least as part of something other than the expensive deluxe addition?
2) At one point I saw a mention that the quad mixes of the WBMF live album had been found. Has there been any mention of those being released? I have seen some slagging of the mix of that record, and personally think it sounds pretty damn great. I like the fact that it sounds like you are in the middle of a big auditorium. The commercial stereo release is actually the quad mix collapsed back into stereo, so would be great to hear it the way it was intended, regardless of what opinions have been offered by those lucky enough to hear a decent copy back in the day.
3) Would also be great to hear a new surround mix of the live record (were the multi-tracks ever found?), as it really does catch them at their best. Also, compared to a lot of other "live" recordings, the "fixing" seems to have been kept to a minimum.
Outside of that, have been seeing a lot of back and forth about SW's mixes versus Jackos. They both seem pretty great to me, and the only problems I have are with the digital medium itself. It seems like that hardest thing to do is to make digital not sound like digital, and more like it's coming off a nice reel of tape. The two SW releases are mixed really well, just wonder what it would sound like if the same mixes were done AAA instead of ADD. I'm guessing I would have the same feeling about BSS when I finally hear it.
Also in relation to the mixes, I've listened to so much quad over the last couple of years, l'm not convinced that 5.1 is better than 4, at least for music. Seems like as soon as you get that center speaker involved, it makes it a lot more likely that the balance won't translate as consistently from system to system, seeing as most people have a center speaker that is different than the other four. Even though most engineers are using 5 identical speakers, virtually no consumer systems are set up that way.
One final thing about AVR calibration programs, I have had better luck not using them, and just sticking to balancing the volume of the speakers once they are laid out in the room. It seems that the whole concept becomes kind of suspect when you start to wonder how good the cal mic is that came with the system. Certainly nowhere near as good as a B&K or an Earthworks, right? So, no matter how good the autocal program is, it is only as good as the mic is accurate. Anyway, any info on the earlier questions would be most appreciated. Thanks.
1) Has their been any mention of the new BSS 5.1 being available as a standalone release, or at least as part of something other than the expensive deluxe addition?
2) At one point I saw a mention that the quad mixes of the WBMF live album had been found. Has there been any mention of those being released? I have seen some slagging of the mix of that record, and personally think it sounds pretty damn great. I like the fact that it sounds like you are in the middle of a big auditorium. The commercial stereo release is actually the quad mix collapsed back into stereo, so would be great to hear it the way it was intended, regardless of what opinions have been offered by those lucky enough to hear a decent copy back in the day.
3) Would also be great to hear a new surround mix of the live record (were the multi-tracks ever found?), as it really does catch them at their best. Also, compared to a lot of other "live" recordings, the "fixing" seems to have been kept to a minimum.
Outside of that, have been seeing a lot of back and forth about SW's mixes versus Jackos. They both seem pretty great to me, and the only problems I have are with the digital medium itself. It seems like that hardest thing to do is to make digital not sound like digital, and more like it's coming off a nice reel of tape. The two SW releases are mixed really well, just wonder what it would sound like if the same mixes were done AAA instead of ADD. I'm guessing I would have the same feeling about BSS when I finally hear it.
Also in relation to the mixes, I've listened to so much quad over the last couple of years, l'm not convinced that 5.1 is better than 4, at least for music. Seems like as soon as you get that center speaker involved, it makes it a lot more likely that the balance won't translate as consistently from system to system, seeing as most people have a center speaker that is different than the other four. Even though most engineers are using 5 identical speakers, virtually no consumer systems are set up that way.
One final thing about AVR calibration programs, I have had better luck not using them, and just sticking to balancing the volume of the speakers once they are laid out in the room. It seems that the whole concept becomes kind of suspect when you start to wonder how good the cal mic is that came with the system. Certainly nowhere near as good as a B&K or an Earthworks, right? So, no matter how good the autocal program is, it is only as good as the mic is accurate. Anyway, any info on the earlier questions would be most appreciated. Thanks.
Ranasakawa
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
I would be very surprised if there is ever a stand alone 5.1 disc of any ELP album now that they can't even put out Trilogy in it's current format. ELP release schedule have been sadly screwed up it seems.
At this point, I'm just curious as to what the damn holdup is with this Trilogy release! Is it the band not being happy with the mixes? Marketing issues? C'mon...give us something!
blue.monk
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
It is an endless enigma.
kap'n krunch
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
I think that the only one who can answer this (if he's allowed to!) is Mister Neil Wilkes...
This was posted by a member over on the SH forum a few days ago, no idea of where the info came from or how accurate it is.
Only in Japan
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/VIZP-124
I've never heard that the quad masters for WBMF , or the multitracks, have ever been found (or lost, for that matter). Transfers of the quad 8-track are in circulation though (every version I've heard had audible defects during the 'Piano Improvisations'). I disagree about the mix -- album always sounded poor to me. I seem to recall reading once, that there were some problems during the recording itself....
It's also notable that King Biscuit broadcast some of the same show...and that was released (on CD, and more recently on Wolfgang's Vault for streaming) , without the vocal processing/reverb heard on WBMF. Not 100% clear to me if the KBFH tape is in fact the source of WBMF, or whether there were two independent recording of the same show (which seems ridiculous, so I suspect not). I don't think the KBFH is a fold down of the quad mix.
Also unclear to me if WBMF is sourced from just one show (Anaheim, Feb 2 1974), or more than one...
See above.
I don't think digital has anything to do with it. It's really the mixes (and mastering, and tape sources) that overwhelmingly determines the sound. AAA would just add noise and 'euphonic distortion' aka 'warmth' to some.
Mine is (Behringer 'Truth' monitors all around...and before that, NHT SuperOnes). A (well matched) center channel is certainly better than none *if* your listeners aren't sitting in the sweet spot. The benefits of a good subwoofer (or two) properly placed and dialed in, are also demosntrable. It's rare that the people have 1) 4 or 5 truly full-range loudspeakers and 2) optimal positioning of those loudspeakers for in-room bass response.
Hard to know for sure. You could, of course, verify that the effect of the auto-calibration is 'beneficial' by independently measuring before/after, with a B&K and , say, REW.
Some wisdom (e.g. Floyd Toole) say that 'room EQ' should be confined to the bass (modal) frequencies, while higher frequencies should be 'controlled' by using well-designed loudspeakers (good flat on/off axis response). I would be interesting to try a room EQ tool that lets you toggle full-range/modal-only correction, but alas my Denon's Audyssey MultiXT32 implementation doesn't allow it.
Dear ssully,
Thanks for such a thorough response. Would be very curious to hear what you might have heard about problems with the original recording. Also, would like to know what you would like to be different if a remix were ever to be done.
Regarding your comments about the King Biscuit stuff, here is what I know. 1) The live record is in fact one show (Anaheim civic). 2) The mixes that King Biscuit issued a few years back as well as the stream on Wolfgangs vault are stereo only ones that were made after most of King Biscuit's quad mixes were lost in a fire.
With the AVR stuff, I should clarify a couple things in relation to what you said. 1) I agree with the subwoofer as being in integral part of the setup, but I kind of assumed that was a given. Then, as far as my four speakers comments go, I was saying 4 speakers from the mixing standpoint. I think you can do a surround mix just fine with a 4.1 setup. However, listening to 5.1 stuff with a 4.1 setup can be pretty bad. A great example of which is the Rolling Stones DVD release of "Ladies and Gentlemen" from 1972. The center channel is microscopically out of alignment with the left and right fronts, so when you sub the three front channels down to two, it sounds like there is a flanger on the whole thing.
Getting back to the quad mix of the live record, need to go back and listen to Q8 version I got a few years back. Also, have recently stumbled across what might be an encoded version of the broadcast, and will put that under the microscope to see what happens.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.
I think I have a copy of that decoded KBFH version too, from the SQ broadcast ... I'll have to give it a listen again and refresh my view of it. IIRC the version of Piano Improvisations on that is truncated, leaving out the part that sounds bad on the Q8 8-track tape...
I can't source my vague memory of the original recording having issues...I'll have to search around for that.
I do recall reading a report that the WBMF album is simply the front left/right channels of the quad mix (rather than a fold-down), with fake echo (reverb) added
I can't source my vague memory of the original recording having issues...I'll have to search around for that.
I do recall reading a report that the WBMF album is simply the front left/right channels of the quad mix (rather than a fold-down), with fake echo (reverb) added
I'd barely consider the KBFH version a quad mix, going over reel files it seems to just be double stereo.
The stereo mix of WBMF couldn't be just the fronts of the quad mix, there would be missing synth parts if that were the case.
The stereo mix of WBMF couldn't be just the fronts of the quad mix, there would be missing synth parts if that were the case.
ssully, the thing about the commercial release being just the front channels is true. Supposedly some of the initial copies were done that way before it was caught and fixed. Am not sure which decoded versions you all have had to listen to, but I did a little experimenting with the version I recently came across, and it is definitely decoding differently than the decoded versions I have heard so far. It seems to be splitting up in a more sensible way than I have heard before. Definitely not double stereo, as AOQ mentioned. Will do my best to get some decodes done one way or another and get them shared as soon as time permits.
found it! On this very website, of course...
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...n-5-1-Surround&p=163498&viewfull=1#post163498
So, my recollection of recording problems is not quite supported....what I was remembering is this other post, from QQ member timbr4, about the quad master tapes:
also, Peter Granet's recollection says WBMf *is* a blend of back and front channels, so, indeed, a fold-down.
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...n-5-1-Surround&p=163498&viewfull=1#post163498
So, my recollection of recording problems is not quite supported....what I was remembering is this other post, from QQ member timbr4, about the quad master tapes:
also, Peter Granet's recollection says WBMf *is* a blend of back and front channels, so, indeed, a fold-down.
Odd...that post says there were 2 sets of identical mixes. Yet, I have a source that is supposedly quad reel of the KBFH reels. Here's Karn Evil 9
And here's an old DTS conversion of tape 3
Maybe the reel is not the same thing that was encoded to SQ and broadcasted, I don't know much about the reels or where they came from, just some files I have.
I think the easy test would be how the ending synth part decodes from the SQ source.
And here's an old DTS conversion of tape 3
Maybe the reel is not the same thing that was encoded to SQ and broadcasted, I don't know much about the reels or where they came from, just some files I have.
I think the easy test would be how the ending synth part decodes from the SQ source.
Yes, I read the comments about the mix being "too badly engineered" for cd-4. Too much phase info to deal with maybe? Would love to hear some more specifics on that. The mix I recently found is definitely a little different than the lp mix as well as the official King Biscuit release. Definitely same show, but sounds like it might have been mixed in a bit more of a hurried fashion. Have reached out to Peter Granet to see if he can shed any light on it, but am pretty sure he said at one point they were two identical mixes.
AOQ's comment about checking the final synth part is a great idea. So far my version shows a lot of phase info other than just 0 degree's at the end, but need to pull it apart to see what that actually does in the speakers.
Of course, I need to say that this version may have been decoded allready ( and I am essentially crying wolf) . But at the same time, I have heard a lot of decoded versions of this show, and so far this one is different than any I have heard.
Wish I had more time to work on this today, but won't have any time till late tonight, as the day job beckons.
AOQ's comment about checking the final synth part is a great idea. So far my version shows a lot of phase info other than just 0 degree's at the end, but need to pull it apart to see what that actually does in the speakers.
Of course, I need to say that this version may have been decoded allready ( and I am essentially crying wolf) . But at the same time, I have heard a lot of decoded versions of this show, and so far this one is different than any I have heard.
Wish I had more time to work on this today, but won't have any time till late tonight, as the day job beckons.
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