Have there been different iterations of Dolby Surround Upmixer over the past few years?

[mister_eff]

Hello,

I recently upgraded my receiver from a Yamaha RX-A880 (2018) to a Marantz Cinema 50. I mainly upgraded because I'm in the process of going from 5.1 to 5.1.4 and the old Yamaha only did front heights. However, when I got everything calibrated, the first thing I noticed when listening to 2-channel music was how seemingly active the surround channels were compared to before (which I like for sure).

Have there been updates to the Dolby Surround Upmixer/DSU over the years? If so, is there any info out there about different versions?

 

[key_wiz]

some years back I 'upgraded' from a Yamaha RX-V471 to a Yamaha RX-A760. The older one had a suite of Dolby surround programs that included Pro Logic and PLII Music. The newer one just has the one Dolby program called Dolby Surround. I've heard various reasons for why this switch was made but the bottom line (for me anyway) is that the older one had more user control and did a much better surround simulation.

I presume the A880 has the same program as my A760. How any of this relates to the Cinema 50? It probably doesn't, except to say that I think whatever Yamaha is/was using on those Advantage receivers from that era kinda sucks. So I would not be surprised at all if either Dolby improved the program, or that Marantz simply utilizes it better.

 

[humprof]

Interesting question. You'd like to hope that if Dolby had been silently tweaking the DSU over the years, they'd have said so. (And/or included those tweaks in our AVRs' firmware upgrades.) But maybe that's not how they roll. And of course if there's no firmware upgrade available for your AVR after a certain age, or if there is but you don't install it, then you're stuck with whatever iteration of the DSU you've got.

At any rate, I can't find anything on the web about incremental changes to the DSU--apart from (and this is a big "except") "Center Spread," which Dolby took away and then gave back. I find that turning Center Spread on makes a huge difference. Maybe that's the difference that you're hearing, too.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/dolby-surround-upmixer-dsu.31728/

 

[mandrix]

I personally don't think any of the upmixing modes on my AVR are anything great. In all these years this is the best they can come up with?
Guess if even they were capable of improving it, that would cut into their licensing of Atmos/DTS:X etc.

 

[zeerround]

I haven't tried in while since I'm so busy with my own building tools for up-remix or upmixing for myself, but I seen to remember preferring the Auro 3d upmixer. Second choice would be DTS, and Dolby comes in last.

 

[mister_eff]

some years back I 'upgraded' from a Yamaha RX-V471 to a Yamaha RX-A760. The older one had a suite of Dolby surround programs that included Pro Logic and PLII Music. The newer one just has the one Dolby program called Dolby Surround. I've heard various reasons for why this switch was made but the bottom line (for me anyway) is that the older one had more user control and did a much better surround simulation.

I presume the A880 has the same program as my A760. How any of this relates to the Cinema 50? It probably doesn't, except to say that I think whatever Yamaha is/was using on those Advantage receivers from that era kinda sucks. So I would not be surprised at all if either Dolby improved the program, or that Marantz simply utilizes it better.

I personally don't think any of the upmixing modes on my AVR are anything great. In all these years this is the best they can come up with?
Guess if even they were capable of improving it, that would cut into their licensing of Atmos/DTS:X etc.

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, when I got my 2018 Yamaha RX-A880, I definitely felt like I took a step back with DSU compared to Pro Logic II. Luckily, it still had DTS Neo:6 so I just used that.

Interesting question. You'd like to hope that if Dolby had been silently tweaking the DSU over the years, they'd have said so. (And/or included those tweaks in our AVRs' firmware upgrades.) But maybe that's not how they roll. And of course if there's no firmware upgrade available for your AVR after a certain age, or if there is but you don't install it, then you're stuck with whatever iteration of the DSU you've got.

At any rate, I can't find anything on the web about incremental changes to the DSU--apart from (and this is a big "except") "Center Spread," which Dolby took away and then gave back. I find that turning Center Spread on makes a huge difference. Maybe that's the difference that you're hearing, too.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/dolby-surround-upmixer-dsu.31728/

Thanks, yeah I recall that "Center Spread" fiasco when they removed it and then put it back. It's definitely not that, as that should just be a front soundstage thing.

The only other thing I could think of is that the surround levels are somehow too high. I have the trim levels or whatever set to match the fronts though (both using Audyssey and then with my spot check with my ear). I guess I'll try the DTS and Auro upmixers today and try those out.

 

[mister_eff]

Ahhh, so after more listening, I became convinced that the surrounds were just too high a level. The built-in Marantz test tones are somehow off between the front and surround levels? I popped in my Dark Side of the Moon Atmos disc (well, mkv rip) and used those test tracks to adjust the fronts/surrounds level and everything feels more "normal" now.

I still need to do more testing, but now I'm guessing Dolby Surround is probably basically the same on this receiver as it was on my old Yamaha. Part of the reason I went with the Marantz is for the Auro 3D, so I'll be messing around with that in addition to DSU and Neural X. I'll probably update this thread with my impressions of each whenever I get the chance.

 

[mandrix]

Ahhh, so after more listening, I became convinced that the surrounds were just too high a level. The built-in Marantz test tones are somehow off between the front and surround levels? I popped in my Dark Side of the Moon Atmos disc (well, mkv rip) and used those test tracks to adjust the fronts/surrounds level and everything feels more "normal" now.

I still need to do more testing, but now I'm guessing Dolby Surround is probably basically the same on this receiver as it was on my old Yamaha. Part of the reason I went with the Marantz is for the Auro 3D, so I'll be messing around with that in addition to DSU and Neural X. I'll probably update this thread with my impressions of each whenever I get the chance.

Interesting. I don't adjust levels normally after I do a calibration with Dirac Live...but then I don't use the upmix programs on the AVR.
Never had the chance to hear Auro3D but I know some swear by it.

 

[AYanguas]

I have had a Denon 8500 since 2018.

At the end of 2020, there was a firmware upgrade that updated the DSU.
I read about some complaints that the dialogue from a 2.0 source moves it to the surrounds, in addition to the center. Someone said that:

“””
This issue seems to be a problem with Dolby's Home Audio 1.6.2 SDK that introduced Dolby Atmos Height Virtualizer, it has been effectively broken since last year back in August 2019 when the 2019 D+M models first received this 1.6.2 version.
“””

During this time I guess Dolby has been updating DSU and those updates would have been transferred to manufacturer’s firmware updates.

After this update, the result has been quite satisfactory for me:
- It added Wides (9.1.4) speakers to the DSU upmixer.
- The DSU surround upmix effects were much better for my taste.

Before the upgrade, I always used Auro-Matic for stereo sources, since I found DSU ineffective and Neural:X too frontal sound and excessively aggressive with the height channels.
But after the upgrade, I prefer DSU over Auro-Matic in many stereo mixes, where I find greater discrete instrument separation effects than with Auro-Matic.

It depends on how the stereo mix is done. But the reality is that now I use Auro-Matic much less, preferring DSU for many stereo mixes that are done in such a way that DSU performs well.

 

[mister_eff]

AHHHH. Audyssey Dynamic EQ is the culprit!

I usually turn off all of that stuff, but Dynamic EQ seems nice in theory. It's supposed to adjust the EQ based on the volume level to compensate for reduced sensitivity to low/high frequencies at levels below the reference level. I pretty much always listen to things below the reference level and I found that Dynamic EQ added some "richness" to the low-end at my listening level.

But there's a whole thing about Dynamic EQ adding a boost to surround and rear noise levels. I saw a discussion on Audio Science Review. They get sidetracked as they always do, but I corroborated the ~+6 dB adjustment to the surround noise levels at my listening level at a "0 Reference Level". I adjusted the Reference Level to "15" and the surround noise level was only about 2 dB higher than the fronts. I still like the effect so I'm messing around with it adjusting the trim levels on my surround channels.

Someone in the ASR thread (at the end) made a script for the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app that I'm tempted to try out to quickly adjust surround and rear levels.