Is your local audio / HiFi dealers stuck in 2-channel music?

[stevendive]

It was a demo of 7.1 playback.

Dolby Surround play adds a delay to the back channels which fixes the cogging.

Discrete 5.1 and 7.1 do not add the delay, so it cogs.

I have heard Ambisonics only once. The sound sources were not moving, so I could not tell if it cogs. It probably does not.

Unless the phase-shifting part of Ambisonics is used, the cogging will be there. The B format is not enough by itself to prevent cogging.

B-format properly decoded through an ambisonic processor, and properly set up identical speakers and output channels, does not exhibit clogging.

 

[stevendive]

B-format properly decoded through an ambisonic processor, and properly set up identical speakers and output channels, does not exhibit clogging.

*cogging

 

[par4ken]

*cogging

That too!

 

[stevendive]

That too!

I was ½ tempted to leave the typo.

 

[par4ken]

I was ½ tempted to leave the typo.

You could also use the edit button, but not as much fun!

 

[MTB Vince]

...Systems with small speakers and low quality amps are not good at creating a large soundstage...

Sorry but I and much of the high-end audiophile community would strongly disagree with your generalization about small speakers @WozzaDog. The fact of the matter is that a great small speaker will often handily outperform a comparably priced full size speaker in both believable imaging and creation of a large soundstage. And this goes doubly so when the system resides in a domestic room of modest dimensions and triply so when you manage to seamlessly integrate several capable real subwoofers with said high-end small speakers. Attempting to shoehorn large floor-standing fullrange loudspeakers into a modest size room will often result in sonic compromises being made vs a smaller speaker with a smaller footprint.

The only potential downside of running a system based upon great small loudspeakers and subwoofers is the dynamic limitations you may run into when attempting to drive them at very high SPLs in a large room.

 

[stevendive]

Sorry but I and much of the high-end audiophile community would strongly disagree with your generalization about small speakers @WozzaDog. The fact of the matter is that a great small speaker will often handily outperform a comparably priced full size speaker in both believable imaging and creation of a large soundstage. And this goes doubly so when the system resides in a domestic room of modest dimensions and triply so when you manage to seamlessly integrate several capable real subwoofers with said high-end small speakers. Attempting to shoehorn large floor-standing fullrange loudspeakers into a modest size room will often result in sonic compromises being made vs a smaller speaker with a smaller footprint.

The only potential downside of running a system based upon great small loudspeakers and subwoofers is the dynamic limitations you may run into when attempting to drive them at very high SPLs in a large room.

Also, what you didn’t write but do show in your photos is the importance of adequate room treatment, which benefit any loudspeaker. Room treatment may not be easy to install in a typical living space but, IMO, should always be considered.

 

[MidiMagic]

I must have missed that, probably because the last time I was in London was 1984.

There may have been a few places that had separate mono and stereo sections when stereo was a new thing, or maybe I’m making this up. That was a long time ago.

I do remember that when stereo stereo first appeared, there was a bin in the record store "NEW STEREO RECORDS". If the store did equipment repairs, it usually had a sign saying: "LET US CONVERT YOUR RECORD PLAYER TO PLAY STEREO RECORDS WITHOUT HARMING THEM".

I can see why for a while they would have separate mono and stereo record sections because many mono players would damage stereo record grooves.

 

[WozzaDog]

Sorry but I and much of the high-end audiophile community would strongly disagree with your generalization about small speakers @WozzaDog. The fact of the matter is that a great small speaker will often handily outperform a comparably priced full size speaker in both believable imaging and creation of a large soundstage. And this goes doubly so when the system resides in a domestic room of modest dimensions and triply so when you manage to seamlessly integrate several capable real subwoofers with said high-end small speakers. Attempting to shoehorn large floor-standing fullrange loudspeakers into a modest size room will often result in sonic compromises being made vs a smaller speaker with a smaller footprint.

The only potential downside of running a system based upon great small loudspeakers and subwoofers is the dynamic limitations you may run into when attempting to drive them at very high SPLs in a large room.

Lol.
Yip, I mad an error in my writing, I should have said “full range speakers and full range speaker combinations of a small speaker and discreet sub for the side and rear speaks vs small not-full range speakers and small and LFE subs”.

I had the fortunate experience of listening to a quadraphonic system in 95 in the studios with 4 Tannoy large speakers of equal size, and then later 5x B&W 801 nautilus speakers for SACD at Abby Road, each with a 15 driver per channel plus separate LFE subs. I know there is a difference of each channel having it’s own 15 driver vs small speakers not playing down below 50hz at good volumes.

There is no replacement for displacement. I like to feel music, not just hear it.

As my friend who designed the accustoms for the Sydney opera house said: a mosquito hitting a person at 100kmh is different then a semi hitting a person at 100kmh.

Having experienced full range sides and rears vs non-full range: For ME is go big or go home. Each to your own.

I listened to the IMAX engineers discuss their theory on bass management and that is ever speaker goes down to 10hz, and there are no separate LFE channels. I like this concept, but that’s not how recordings go.

However watch this space. In the next 0 to 10 years whatch how the reverse of the distributing bass from each channel to subs is reverse engineered and processors will have a feature:
- Distribute LFE channel to full range speakers

Denon AVR1 has this feature. I had this feature on my previous Marantz processor but it would only send the LFE to the mains, plus had feature to send main speaker bass to LFE.

I bekeive storm Audio processor can also send LFE signals to main speakers as well.

We could go much much deeper here off topic. And I am not an accustom engineer. I am not a musician. I just a jerk lol who enjoys surround sound music from large full range speakers. I want large drivers on ever channel. My fronts have dual 10” woofers per channel.

I will start a new thread. I think there was one previously, but this thread will ask for the science of low frequency playback at volume on side and rear speakers. So rather then focus on size, the focus is on output. And let’s have fun with sone feedback of some suggested tracks?

Back to this topic:

Is your local audio / HiFi dealers stuck in 2-channel music?​

 

[MidiMagic]

Thank you for clarifying the origin of the term clogging, it’s creative.

Maybe, just maybe, there is a strong possibility the system you were listening to in the store was not that good.

Systems with small speakers and low quality amps are not good at creating a large soundstage. So when the panning from front right to side right takes place the speakers and amps can’t fill in the space in between. If you in a store like an open Best Buy you would need very large speakers to prevent “cogging” or I will say “convergence of sound” between the speakers. I’m talking about $5-$10 full range side speakers to fill the space. You soon have a $50k system. But in your home space where the roof isn’t 50ft tall and 150ft wide ….

Have you heard a Dirac room corrected 7.2.4 or 7.4.4 or 7.4.6 system with full range 7 speakers (no bookshelf’s / no slim towers)? Where the dude and rear speakers are speakers designed to be front speakers? This cogging doesn’t exist if setup correctly. Amps are as important as speakers.

It would be nice if that fixed the problem.

I have studied the problem and it comes from how our hearing system locates sounds.

When a sound comes to our ears, the hearing system derives the direction of the sound source from the intensity, time, and phase differences.

When the sound comes from multiple directions, the hearing system uses the loudest instance of the sound in each ear as the main event and considers the other instances as reflections of that sound.

If the sound comes from two directions in front of the listener or two direction behind the listener simultaneously (or near simultaneously), the system uses the various loudness levels from the instances to derive a position between them. This is why level panning works in front of the listener or behind the listener.

If the sound comes from the side, level panning does not work. There are two or three sound sources depending on the setup. The loudest sound arriving at both ears is taken as the direction the sound comes from, with the other speaker source(s) treated as echos because they have different levels and timings.

As the levels change as the sound is panned from one speaker to another, the dominant source changes to another speaker, the level, timing, and phase of the dominant source changes. This sudden change in dominance causes the cogging.

Level panning does not work when both speakers are on the same side of the listener.

Some people seem to be able to hear the pan without cogging. Maybe they have somehow trained their ears to hear side panning, but it doesn't work for me.

I have not heard a Dirac system. I don't know where I would hear one, as Best Buy is the only store pushing audio equipment. I asked them about an Atmos ceiling mount and they didn't know what I was talking about.

 

[WozzaDog]

Level panning does not work when both speakers are on the same side of the listener.

This is not true. Incremental changes of volumes between two channels creates direction. To prove this point use Dolby Atmos on Xbox and there are many ways to have sound of a first person shooter cone from between the front and side speakers and side and rear. I’ve texted this extensively on MW2 to prove the point to my son that his Atmos headphones don’t position as well

 

[Sal1950]

The only potential downside of running a system based upon great small loudspeakers and subwoofers is the dynamic limitations you may run into when attempting to drive them at very high SPLs in a large room.

It may be a bit more problematic than that.
A small 2 way with say a 6.5 woofer has definite SPL limits before distortion starts to become a
real issue below 1k. Subwoofers can only be allowed to go up so high before they start to become a separate audible source so they're not a panacea.
I believe it's actually easier to get away with small speakers and a couple subs for movies than
music. Movies tend to center around the vocal range until the effects call the subs into the mix for
the bass and LFE's. Music tends to have more active wide frequency needs thru the low midrange and mid-bass.
Personally I've had 3 or 4, 5.2 surround systems and am much happier after I went to my current
JBL 3 way towers with 3 6.5 woofers and the large horn tweeter all around. It's just a cleaner sounding system even at modest SPL's. JMHO.

 

[gene_stl]

In engineering, there are many ways to skin a cat. So there are some two way and bookshelf systems, that can perform surprisingly well. Especially, when driven by DSP equalizer systems, that essentially tailor the amplifier response, frequency by frequency. Active design also makes things easier to implement, and more efficient. And these systems are designed to be used in acoustically speaking, small environments. Most people do not have an actual movie theater sized , home theater room. They are also designed and intended for reasonable volume levels. As Sal points out above, music probably has greater requirements for this than movies. (Crest or power factor of the audio signals) Also a multichannel system might make it a little easier to wrench the system up to high SPLs without blowing up speakers for when you are listening to those live concerts. Game and cinema sound are slightly different animals.

However, back in the day we used to say. Big Box= Big Bass and small box = small bass. The laws of physics have not changed. The main thing that has changed is that efficient accurate power amps are available for low cost. (Have you looked at the entry level Crowns and Behringers. They practically give them away and they have hundreds of watts for almost no money) Another change is that magnetic materials have been improved on so that Alnico is no longer the best choice for speaker motor magnets. Despite what JBL and Altec collectors (and I used to be one) think, You still have to move some air.

Because they are cheaper to manufacture and to schip manufacturer's have been moving towards two ways. Well, a two way with a sub, is sort of a three way. Especially so with multiple subs.

I tell whomever will listen to me that 4way>3way>2way>"so-called full range". There is a certain class of audiophile who has been indoctrinated in a snake oil tenet that "crossover networks are bad" and you should try and radiate all the sound from a point source. So they buy very expensive six to eight inch drivers like Lowthers and play female vocal music on them. They do sound nice but how something sounds is one of the least reliable measures of its audio engineering merit. A local friend of mine has literally started a company to sell a subwoofer to go with either one of these type of drivers or with the small Magneplanar LRS panels because "neither has enough bass". They also need a tweeter because a six or eight inch diameter driver can only make a laser like beam of high frequencies when your are looking at above about 2kHz. So you are back to at least a three way.

When people try to sell me on full range drivers I like to point out that we have violins violas cellos , basses and double basses for the reason that one size does not fit all radiated frequencies. They same also applies to organ pipes which range from sixty four feet long and large diameter to little tiny whistle tubes and everything in between. And also why a small chain saw sounds different from a top fuel dragster which sounds different from a ConVair B-36 with four of the biggest piston engines ever built.

When you are dividing the audio spectrum into four ways or five ways, the crossovers become extremely inefficient and their impedance gyrates and becomes very difficult for some amps to drive. This is why Infinity speakers which were five ways , and some,with a rear radiator that made it a six way from an impedance point of view required bullet proof very strong amplifiers and were much better off being multi amped.. But over the years they built a variety of very large systems. It is also why four and five way systems have troublesome reputations amp requirement wise. If one just triamps them they knock the ball out of the park and out of the city.

As the number of channels increases the size of the speaker boxes can become an issue. Also complexity.

 

[Sal1950]

Local Hi-Fi dealer?
Do you have a local Hi-Fi dealer?
Closest thing I got is Best Buy.

 

[MidiMagic]

This is not true. Incremental changes of volumes between two channels creates direction. To prove this point use Dolby Atmos on Xbox and there are many ways to have sound of a first person shooter cone from between the front and side speakers and side and rear. I’ve texted this extensively on MW2 to prove the point to my son that his Atmos headphones don’t position as well

How did you train your ears to hear that?

Shooter cone?

Add more speakers and the sound image stops in more places.

 

[Sal1950]

It is also why four and five way systems have troublesome reputations amp requirement wise.

Ya mean amps don't like when speakers dive into the 1 1/2 ohm impedance area?
Good post Gene, as we know all things are relative and there's no absolutes. LOL

It's just that with the popularity of stand mount 2-ways, many claims are made both
by manufacturers and reviewers on their capabilities. No matter the cone material, there
are some reasonable limits to excursion and its low bass bandpass. At some point the cone begins to flex and distort, and keeping the voice-coil in the linear area of the magnet structure
becomes a big problem.
In most instances I still believe a well designed 3 way, plus a sub for best placement, can offer
the best of all options, all things being equal.
YMMV

 

[The Rang]

We had, and still have, a half dozen decent dealers in and around Vancouver.
I stand to be corrected, but I don’t recall any of them, ever, having a multi channel audio system set up.
Theatre rooms for movies, probably, but not music.

 

[WozzaDog]

In engineering, there are many ways to skin a cat. So there are some two way and bookshelf systems, that can perform surprisingly well. Especially, when driven by DSP equalizer systems, that essentially tailor the amplifier response, frequency by frequency. Active design also makes things easier to implement, and more efficient. And these systems are designed to be used in acoustically speaking, small environments. Most people do not have an actual movie theater sized , home theater room. They are also designed and intended for reasonable volume levels. As Sal points out above, music probably has greater requirements for this than movies. (Crest or power factor of the audio signals) Also a multichannel system might make it a little easier to wrench the system up to high SPLs without blowing up speakers for when you are listening to those live concerts. Game and cinema sound are slightly different animals.

However, back in the day we used to say. Big Box= Big Bass and small box = small bass. The laws of physics have not changed. The main thing that has changed is that efficient accurate power amps are available for low cost. (Have you looked at the entry level Crowns and Behringers. They practically give them away and they have hundreds of watts for almost no money) Another change is that magnetic materials have been improved on so that Alnico is no longer the best choice for speaker motor magnets. Despite what JBL and Altec collectors (and I used to be one) think, You still have to move some air.

Because they are cheaper to manufacture and to schip manufacturer's have been moving towards two ways. Well, a two way with a sub, is sort of a three way. Especially so with multiple subs.

I tell whomever will listen to me that 4way>3way>2way>"so-called full range". There is a certain class of audiophile who has been indoctrinated in a snake oil tenet that "crossover networks are bad" and you should try and radiate all the sound from a point source. So they buy very expensive six to eight inch drivers like Lowthers and play female vocal music on them. They do sound nice but how something sounds is one of the least reliable measures of its audio engineering merit. A local friend of mine has literally started a company to sell a subwoofer to go with either one of these type of drivers or with the small Magneplanar LRS panels because "neither has enough bass". They also need a tweeter because a six or eight inch diameter driver can only make a laser like beam of high frequencies when your are looking at above about 2kHz. So you are back to at least a three way.

When people try to sell me on full range drivers I like to point out that we have violins violas cellos , basses and double basses for the reason that one size does not fit all radiated frequencies. They same also applies to organ pipes which range from sixty four feet long and large diameter to little tiny whistle tubes and everything in between. And also why a small chain saw sounds different from a top fuel dragster which sounds different from a ConVair B-36 with four of the biggest piston engines ever built.

When you are dividing the audio spectrum into four ways or five ways, the crossovers become extremely inefficient and their impedance gyrates and becomes very difficult for some amps to drive. This is why Infinity speakers which were five ways with a rear radiator that made it a six way from an impedance point of view required bullet proof very strong amplifiers and were much better off being multi amped.. But over the years they built a variety of very large systems. It is also why four and five way systems have troublesome reputations amp requirement wise. If one just triamps them they knock the ball out of the park and out of the city.

As the number of channels increases the size of the speaker boxes can become an issue. Also complexiI

Yesterday I heard a pair of the Phantom speakers from Devialet and they were a reminder to me that the result of sound reproduction. These active wireless speakers are very impressive. Imagine 7.4.8
https://www.devialet.com/en-ca/?country=CA2 x 400 W RMS. 101 dB SPL. 18Hz – 21kHz.

 

[gene_stl]

If one reads Dr. Floyd Toole's definitive text on sound and speakers he states that all speaker testing and spinoramas done at Harman are performed on mono examples of the speakers under test.

When you start adding multiples you reduce the diaphragm excursion proportionally , so by the time you reach 5.0 if there is any content in the one that are not L and R , contributing to the SPL it is going to start sounding pretty good.

Devialet knows how to build stuff but their prices make me look elsewhere.

 

[Sal1950]

101 dB SPL

I wonder what distortion level they set that SPL max at?
As we know, you can't change the laws of physics, there's only so much you can
do with a tiny speaker like this. Not my cup of tea at all, besides I find them majorly
fugly.

Yesterday I heard a pair of the Phantom speakers from Devialet and they were a reminder to me that the result of sound reproduction. These active wireless speakers are very impressive. Imagine 7.4.8

There's a lot of reviews out there, not all positive at all
And the price for what it is! ???