Re: DVD-A Semantics

[tarkusnj]

Well, I can send that .1 to my subs and mains if I want, so it is not a distinct channel IMO. I actually prefer 4.0, and then I can still send the low bass signals to my mains and subs. The center channel is valuable in the right hands (like Steven Wilson) or more often than not does more harm than good (again IMO).

I think you misunderstood my point. If you have a DVD-A disc there are 6 separate DISTINCT DISCREET channels of which the SUB/LFE is set apart from the other 5. At least that is the way I interpreted it since it's inception. And when I have made DVD-A discs (since around 2002), the sixth channel is the low frequency ONLY and the other 5 send all of their output to their assigned channels. That is why when putting a DVD-A system together, at least in the beginning (before the bass management), it was important to have 5 matching full range main speakers that could handle the lows that were directed to them because the lows were not stripped and sent to your sub. Maybe I have the wrong idea of what DVD-A actually is/was.

 

[MyCuff]

I think you misunderstood my point. If you have a DVD-A disc there are 6 separate DISTINCT DISCREET channels of which the SUB/LFE is set apart from the other 5. At least that is the way I interpreted it since it's inception. And when I have made DVD-A discs (since around 2002), the sixth channel is the low frequency ONLY and the other 5 send all of their output to their assigned channels. That is why when putting a DVD-A system together, at least in the beginning (before the bass management), it was important to have 5 matching full range main speakers that could handle the lows that were directed to them because the lows were not stripped and sent to your sub. Maybe I have the wrong idea of what DVD-A actually is/was.

I get what you are saying. But I think you also supported my point in your paragraph above. There are 5 channels that offer the possibility of musically distinct content. The .1 although it is routed to a sub discreetly is, at least musically, content that is omni directional and could go to any speaker that handled the frequency. I have four mains with 12" woofers, plus two 12" powered subs. My center channel is two 8"s. I route the bass to both subs and the front mains. You are also right about bass management being finicky, but with what I did, it no longer matters to me.

 

[Bob Squires Jr]

Personally the LFE has no place in music.
Movies, yes, music , no.
Just my opinion.

 

[kap'n krunch]

Personally the LFE has no place in music.
Movies, yes, music , no.
Just my opinion.

Totally agree..!

 

[Almen]

This 5.1 thing has me going. Why does everyone refer to DVD-Audio as 5.1?

Because they're uninformed?

As I understand it, the ".1" is any sub frequencies sent to the subwoofer by your sound processor.

No, that is the SW channel. The .1 (or LFE) is the channel that might or might not appear on your phonogram (which might or might not be a DVD-A).

A DVD-Audio disc has SIX distinct channels with the Sub/LFE being the sixth channel...at least that is the way I have understood it.

No, the .1/LFE being the sixth, if it's there. There are DVD-As that are 4.0, you know.

So 5.1 and DVD-A are not the same thing.

Exactly.

 

[Almen]

Personally the LFE has no place in music.
Movies, yes, music , no.
Just my opinion.

Totally agree..!

Well, it might, but mostly it doesn't.

 

[tarkusnj]

The .1 although it is routed to a sub discreetly is, at least musically, content that is omni directional and could go to any speaker that handled the frequency.

No, when a DVD-A disc is authored, there is a sixth separate channel, just like in a quad recording you have Lf-Rf-Ls-Rs, and C if there is a center channel, the low frequency channel is a totally separate and discreet wav (LFE). Now if your processor has bass management, I am not sure how that would work but still, the sixth channel will go no other place than your sub. You could even put a vocal track there! Years ago, I had one of the Outlaw Audio bass management processors to extract some of the lower freqs and send them to my sub also.
So anyway, I believe the 5.1 terminology is just plain totally incorrect when tagged onto a DVD-A disc, at least when you are accessing the DVD-A layer.
Wish we had some input from Neil on this one.

 

[LizardKing]

No, when a DVD-A disc is authored, there is a sixth separate channel, just like in a quad recording you have Lf-Rf-Ls-Rs, and C if there is a center channel, the low frequency channel is a totally separate and discreet wav (LFE). Now if your processor has bass management, I am not sure how that would work but still, the sixth channel will go no other place than your sub. You could even put a vocal track there! Years ago, I had one of the Outlaw Audio bass management processors to extract some of the lower freqs and send them to my sub also.
So anyway, I believe the 5.1 terminology is just plain totally incorrect when tagged onto a DVD-A disc, at least when you are accessing the DVD-A layer.
Wish we had some input from Neil on this one.

OK - a couple of comments on this:

• A DVD-A can have UP TO six channels, but doesn't need to. A DVD-A can have 5.1 content on it (or not). Most surround DVD-As are 5.1, some are 4.0, 4.1, 5.0 or theoretically any other combination (up to 5.1).
• Assuming its wired up (correctly) the LFE channel goes to your subwoofer if you have one. If you don't - The processor mixes the LFE in the other channels (sometimes just the large speakers or fronts).

Thats my understanding. DVD-As are not any different in terms of 5.1. (Apart from bass management not being handled by some (older) players properly)

I'm not sure why you think the 5.1

 

[tarkusnj]

OK - a couple of comments on this:

• A DVD-A can have UP TO six channels, but doesn't need to. A DVD-A can have 5.1 content on it (or not). Most surround DVD-As are 5.1, some are 4.0, 4.1, 5.0 or theoretically any other combination (up to 5.1).
• Assuming its wired up (correctly) the LFE channel goes to your subwoofer if you have one. If you don't - The processor mixes the LFE in the other channels (sometimes just the large speakers or fronts).

Thats my understanding. DVD-As are not any different in terms of 5.1. (Apart from bass management not being handled by some (older) players properly)

I'm not sure why you think the 5.1

I am pretty sure that if you don't have a sub hooked up, you will NOT get the LFE channel AT ALL. Like I am saying, DVD-Audio is NOT technically 5.1. There are six separate and distinct channels. Have you ever used a DVD-A authoring program? The ".1" is done through processing as in DD and DTS..not so with DVD-A.

 

[LizardKing]

I am pretty sure that if you don't have a sub hooked up, you will NOT get the LFE channel AT ALL.

It depends on your player/processor combination.... if bass management works (yes sometimes it doesn't) for DVD-Audio the LFE channel can be directed to the fronts. I have seen this.

Like I am saying, DVD-Audio is NOT technically 5.1. There are six separate and distinct channels.

This comment doesn't make sense to me..

DVD-Audio isn't 5.1 - but can contain 5.1 content. 5.1 is 6 separate and distinct channels... and 5.1 content on a DVD-A is 6 channels.

Sounds like your confusing low frequencies passed to the subwoofer (by bass management) with the distinct LFE channel.

Have you ever used a DVD-A authoring program? The ".1" is done through processing as in DD and DTS..not so with DVD-A.

Yes - I've authored DVD-As.

The .1 channel is usually created (by low pass filters) prior to encoding - regardless of format - (e.g. MLP (DVD-A), DD, DTS etc )....

Anyway - with full range speakers, and a good sub who needs bass management!!!!

 

[wanners]

The way I understood it was that the .1 was used for movies because the 5 other channels had speakers with limited frequoency range. you needed a subwoofer to get the real low lows. If you had 4 or 5 full frequency speakers, you really wouldn't need the .1 channel at all. If you play a 4.0 or 5.0 dvda on a system with limited range speakers you will have to have a SW hooked up with bass management or you will have no low frequencies at all and it will sound like shit.

 

[LizardKing]

The way I understood it was that the .1 was used for movies because the 5 other channels had speakers with limited frequoency range. you needed a subwoofer to get the real low lows. If you had 4 or 5 full frequency speakers, you really wouldn't need the .1 channel at all. If you play a 4.0 or 5.0 dvda on a system with limited range speakers you will have to have a SW hooked up with bass management or you will have no low frequencies at all and it will sound like shit.

Actually what you've said could be misinterpreted.

When you say "the .1 was used for movies" are you talking about the LFE channel or all information coming out of the subwoofer?

I'd re-word it to this:

"If you have limited range speakers you need a subwoofer to which the low frequencies can be sent. This is in addition to the low frequencies that are already being sent to the sub in the LFE channel."

Hey Jon - where's my QQ 1K coffee mug!!!!

 

[wanners]

Actually what you've said could be misinterpreted.

When you say "the .1 was used for movies" are you talking about the LFE channel or all information coming out of the subwoofer?

I'd re-word it to this:

"If you have limited range speakers you need a subwoofer to which the low frequencies can be sent. This is in addition to the low frequencies that are already being sent to the sub in the LFE channel."

Hey Jon - where's my QQ 1K coffee mug!!!!

I was actually referring to the LFE channel. From what I remember reading the wiki a while ago, the LFE channel was also meant for sounds that might be too low for full range speakers. But I agree with your clarification. I do think the LFE is uneccessary for music.

 

[wanners]

Actually what you've said could be misinterpreted.

When you say "the .1 was used for movies" are you talking about the LFE channel or all information coming out of the subwoofer?

I'd re-word it to this:

"If you have limited range speakers you need a subwoofer to which the low frequencies can be sent. This is in addition to the low frequencies that are already being sent to the sub in the LFE channel."
\QUOTE]

Not to belabor this, but your clarifification would only apply if you're listening to a 4.1 or 5.1 mix without full range speakers. If you're listening to a 4.0 or 5.0, like in my example, then there is no LFE.

 

[tarkusnj]

Actually what you've said could be misinterpreted.
Not to belabor this, but your clarifification would only apply if you're listening to a 4.1 or 5.1 mix without full range speakers. If you're listening to a 4.0 or 5.0, like in my example, then there is no LFE.

With DVD-Audio there IS no ".1". The original definition of DVD-A was 6 channel audio...period. Am I the only one who understands this??????

 

[tarkusnj]

OK - a couple of comments on this:

• A DVD-A can have UP TO six channels, but doesn't need to. A DVD-A can have 5.1 content on it (or not). Most surround DVD-As are 5.1, some are 4.0, 4.1, 5.0 or theoretically any other combination (up to 5.1).
• Assuming its wired up (correctly) the LFE channel goes to your subwoofer if you have one. If you don't - The processor mixes the LFE in the other channels (sometimes just the large speakers or fronts).

I have made stereo DVD-A 192/24 DVD-A discs, my point is there is NO POINT 1 IN DVD-A.

 

[tarkusnj]

Does anyone here remember 6 channel analogue output? COMEON!! Six separate, individual channels, no ".1".
That was how DVD-Audio started!
I feel like I am talking to some relative DVD-Audio "newbies" here.
Don't mind me...I only say what I know which isn't always correct..but I believe I am in this case.

 

[LizardKing]

I have made stereo DVD-A 192/24 DVD-A discs, my point is there is NO POINT 1 IN DVD-A.

DVD-As do have a .1 channel.

 

[LizardKing]

Does anyone here remember 6 channel analogue output? COMEON!! That was how DVD-Audio started!
I feel like I am talking to some DVD-Audio rookies here.
Don't mind me...I only say what I know.

I still use analog outs.... sounds better.

 

[quad57]

You are correct Mr.Tarkusnj. I was using a 6 channel analogue output for years even with and an Outlaw ICBM which provided bass managment before bass management players and HDMI.Back then my dvd audio player display would always read DVD audio 6.0 channels. Different then dvd movies that would read 5.1.