Why can't new equipment play old material

[SeeMoreDigital]

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread about the demise of the ability for current gear to handle legacy codecs. However, what is even more dumbfounding is the lack of simple controls in these modern AVRs, specifically the L/R Balance control and especially the FADER control.

Yep... We need multi-channel 'audio only' processor/amplifiers, that don't offer any video processing, just pass-through to your display

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

Yep... We need multi-channel 'audio only' processor/amplifiers, that don't offer any video processing, just pass-through to your display

AVR's process video? I never noticed any video processing settings on my AVR other than upscaling.
Then again, I guess it's called an Audio Video Receiver.

 

[barfle]

I have at least a couple of hobbies that require me to understand technologies - a media room and an old VW beetle. I either keep them alive myself, or pay through the nose to have someone else do it, if I can find someone who can.

Some of my gear, as I have noted, was designed and built in the 1960s. Some of my records were pressed over a century ago. Some engine parts on my bug have not been manufactured for decades, and keeping the start injector alive is a project in its own right.

While I understand the frustrations of those who simply want to listen to music the way they used to, sometimes a hobby requires a more, ahem, immersive experience. Yes, listening to a beloved old recording the way the producers intended it to be heard can be sublime, but fiddling with the gear is always going to be part of the hobby.

You rarely see someone restringing a bow, but it’s a skill every violinist should have.

 

[Owen Smith]

Yep... We need multi-channel 'audio only' processor/amplifiers, that don't offer any video processing, just pass-through to your display

The current Arcam AVR range does that, it doesn't even offer upscaling of the video. It just extracts the audio and passes the video unmodified to the display.

 

[MidiMagic]

They don't change the hardware so the software won't work. they change it beacuse they are making progress and moving forward with new features. Does it really sound reasonable to develop hardware to support every format or software package for all time? It is much more than just "saving a buck". You all sound like my grandmother who won't learn how to use a cellphone even if it means being able to see her great-grandchildren over video call. Dolby Surround is older than me. Windows XP is done - why would you want to use it? Do you want viruses? There have not been security updates for XP in nearly a decade. This is how technology works. There are great things available today; it's time to move on.

It makes perfect sense to me to be totally backward compatible.

Changing it so it is not backward compatible is just a scam to make you buy everything new. They could make it compatible if they wanted to. They want more money instead.

 

[MidiMagic]

I have at least a couple of hobbies that require me to understand technologies - a media room and an old VW beetle. I either keep them alive myself, or pay through the nose to have someone else do it, if I can find someone who can.

Some of my gear, as I have noted, was designed and built in the 1960s. Some of my records were pressed over a century ago. Some engine parts on my bug have not been manufactured for decades, and keeping the start injector alive is a project in its own right.

While I understand the frustrations of those who simply want to listen to music the way they used to, sometimes a hobby requires a more, ahem, immersive experience. Yes, listening to a beloved old recording the way the producers intended it to be heard can be sublime, but fiddling with the gear is always going to be part of the hobby.

You rarely see someone restringing a bow, but it’s a skill every violinist should have.

And every archer.

This makes sense as long as equipment does not fail.

If the equipment fails, you may be totally deprived of the ability to hear the recording.

 

[jimfisheye]

Why are the newest devices unable to play the surround recording from just a few years ago?

Most of my material (especially movies) are in Dolby Surround, and they do not provide that in new equipment anymore. Why? Is it the stupid royalties?

Why? Profiteering and planned obsolescence!
Encoded music is always a risk to keep encoded! It's by design.

The entire premise is copy protection and disabling playback following a subscription or license key issue. Dolby in particular are cryptic and ruthless!

Decode your up to 8 channel files to FLAC and your new 7.1.4 (Atmos) files to WAVPACK. 20 years later, they will continue to simply play with whatever off the shelf simple media player app you choose to use.

Buying a hardware version of some decoder is always a risk. The modern concept of computer based home theater is really the way to go and the way to stay. Dolby (again) is currently making a hard sell with their Atmos copy protection system and selling AV receivers with the decoder hidden in the firmware. They are simultaneously refusing to sell the license to any 3rd party media player app in order to push the hardware decoders. At present they are even refusing to sell their encoder suite (which includes their proprietary Atmos decoding media player) to anyone not already associated with them on a corporate level. (They apparently saw all the forum posts explaining how to get their reference media player by buying the encoder subscription and have now cut consumers off.)

This all leads to media purchases that end up being more like a rental that expires. Rip your purchases to non-encoded files and use simple media player apps. Avoid hardware decoding solutions. Your collection will stay with you for life.

 

[sjcorne]

They apparently saw all the forum posts explaining how to get their reference media player by buying the encoder subscription and have now cut consumers off.

What forum posts? The only comments I've seen about the reference player on this forum lately are yours.

You do you, but I really don't understand the appeal of taking the Atmos music out of its encoded format - not only is it incredibly time-consuming to record the 12 channels into a DAW in real-time, but you're removing its ability to automatically adapt to the user's setup. Handing users a 12-channel PCM file and asking them to do the fold-down themselves is not exactly making it easy for the consumer.

 

[Owen Smith]

Dolby in particular are cryptic and ruthless!

True and has been for a decade or two.

The modern concept of computer based home theater is really the way to go and the way to stay.

Far too much like hard work for me. I never even finished ripping all my CDs to FLAC.

 

[gene_stl]

I find that dbPowerAmp makes ripping CDs so effortless, that even I, the second or third laziest person ever born, am willing to do it, though my CD collection keeps getting so big that I am unlikely really to bother. I actually bought that program to rip CDs from the liberry and other sources.

SACDs DVDs and BDs are a whole nother smoke. I have ripped a number of SACDs since the availability of the MediaTek hack.

I have Handbrakee and Make MKV loaded and will probably eventually purchase DVD audio extractor or whatever is the consensus preferred tool.
I already have jRiver but don't yet have the whole house wired up.

Perhaps it's an IQ test that I am failing. I mostlly prefer to handle discs. But I am not very far into the NAS adventure. For me that is what is really too much like hard work.

Accordingly ripping an Atmos file doesn't sound like a great idea to me though I am 100% in favor of circumventing digital rights management systems. But I suspect that someone will eventually write and post software that will allow at least decoding if not also encoding (or compatibilty mode) of Atmos. Perhaps someone will file an antitrust lawsuit against Dolby when Atmos gets big enough to require them to make the decoder software available.

 

[jimfisheye]

True and has been for a decade or two.

Far too much like hard work for me. I never even finished ripping all my CDs to FLAC.

Well we need something to fuss with nowadays since there's no longer any album cover artwork to look at during that first listen! Anyone else find themselves playing a new album in a DAW to look at the waves on the first play?

Anyway, there IS an answer to the planned obsolescence and one can curate a permanent media collection free of any proprietary playback restrictions. Choose your adventure I guess?

I'll say this, it's easier than dealing with decoding surround from any of the encoded vinyl formats from back in the day! I'm still impressed by anyone who got through any of that!

 

[Owen Smith]

I'll say this, it's easier than dealing with decoding surround from any of the encoded vinyl formats from back in the day! I'm still impressed by anyone who got through any of that!

Unfortunately we're at the start of Dolby Surround encoded material joining those old matrix formats in the land of obsolescence and needing old hardware or computers to decode them properly.

 

[jimfisheye]

Unfortunately we're at the start of Dolby Surround encoded material joining those old matrix formats in the land of obsolescence and needing old hardware or computers to decode them properly.

That is what is pushing me to avoid their proprietary formats! More so than ever now with their new planned obsolescence hardware decoding scheme that is Atmos.

At least back in the day with those vinyl formats it was organic. Someone had to devise something! This new stuff is all software spoofing.

I was still on board actually. I still think Atmos is crafty (the speaker management) and I wanted to jump in with both feet! Dolby going hard and refusing to sell the encoder software to anyone independent is a pretty hard stop though, ya know! I don't know what else to do. So I'm in "liberate and warn" mode now. I'm not happy about any of this and I think it distracts from getting excited about new 12 channel mixes.

 

[Owen Smith]

I have a 5.0 speaker setup (my room can't accommodate more), so DTS HD MA and Dolby True HD are fine for me. And for Atmos the bed layer is all I need, which is also Dolby True HD. So I don't have a conundrum about proprietary formats with unavailable encoders.

 

[Electric Moo]

Unfortunately we're at the start of Dolby Surround encoded material joining those old matrix formats in the land of obsolescence and needing old hardware or computers to decode them properly.

Maybe this is a good opportunity for our favourite Australian audio company: Involve!

Who are carrying the matrix encoded banner high, and continuing to improve & support it.

 

[par4ken]

I'll say this, it's easier than dealing with decoding surround from any of the encoded vinyl formats from back in the day! I'm still impressed by anyone who got through any of that!

How is that hard? Just play through your favorite decoder. It couldn't be easier!

 

[barfle]

And every archer.

This makes sense as long as equipment does not fail.

If the equipment fails, you may be totally deprived of the ability to hear the recording.

The reason I posted that message is to note that repair is a part of every hobby that I know of. Even coin collectors need to maintain their albums.

 

[MidiMagic]

Why? Profiteering and planned obsolescence!
Encoded music is always a risk to keep encoded! It's by design.

The entire premise is copy protection and disabling playback following a subscription or license key issue. Dolby in particular are cryptic and ruthless!

Decode your up to 8 channel files to FLAC and your new 7.1.4 (Atmos) files to WAVPACK. 20 years later, they will continue to simply play with whatever off the shelf simple media player app you choose to use.

Buying a hardware version of some decoder is always a risk. The modern concept of computer based home theater is really the way to go and the way to stay. Dolby (again) is currently making a hard sell with their Atmos copy protection system and selling AV receivers with the decoder hidden in the firmware. They are simultaneously refusing to sell the license to any 3rd party media player app in order to push the hardware decoders. At present they are even refusing to sell their encoder suite (which includes their proprietary Atmos decoding media player) to anyone not already associated with them on a corporate level. (They apparently saw all the forum posts explaining how to get their reference media player by buying the encoder subscription and have now cut consumers off.)

This all leads to media purchases that end up being more like a rental that expires. Rip your purchases to non-encoded files and use simple media player apps. Avoid hardware decoding solutions. Your collection will stay with you for life.

They will make a new computer that can't run the computer based home theater.

 

[MidiMagic]

That is what is pushing me to avoid their proprietary formats! More so than ever now with their new planned obsolescence hardware decoding scheme that is Atmos.

At least back in the day with those vinyl formats it was organic. Someone had to devise something! This new stuff is all software spoofing.

I was still on board actually. I still think Atmos is crafty (the speaker management) and I wanted to jump in with both feet! Dolby going hard and refusing to sell the encoder software to anyone independent is a pretty hard stop though, ya know! I don't know what else to do. So I'm in "liberate and warn" mode now. I'm not happy about any of this and I think it distracts from getting excited about new 12 channel mixes.

What about when they discontinue Atmos for something else?

 

[jimfisheye]

What about when they discontinue Atmos for something else?

My wavpack archive of 7.1.4 mixes will keep playing in whatever simple media player I'm using and I'll go after whatever that new format is. Kind of like right now.
That's the what.

My interest in Atmos is the delivery of a 7.1.4 mix 1:1. The Atmos speaker manager ability to scale it up to a larger theater style speaker array isn't critical to me. The original mix (mixed originally on a 7.1.4 system) is the critical part. I could always speaker manage that after the fact to a theater system if I wanted. The other direction - folding down to a smaller speaker array is a moot point as it's already compromised from the intended mix.
That's the why.

"They will make a new computer that can't run the computer based home theater."

I haven't been hit by the computer gaslighting yet! (Knocks on wood.)
Post-Jobs Apple sure goes hard with this now. Probably why I stopped buying any hardware from them. (Also because I already have a Mac Pro and Macbook Pro that can't get much faster!) The Mac Pro can't go back much earlier than High Sierra now because of the newer metal graphics card. Still runs up to the latest MacOS. My laptop currently boots Snow Leopard thru Ventura. I have 3 bootable partitions right now: 10.6.8, 10.13.6, & 12.6.7. (Not a fan of Ventura so far.) Bring it on, you gaslighting planned obsolescence freaks! You're not going to win this one. Your restrictions make it seem like you stuff is simply broken.