Converting MCH discs 101: Overview

[GOS]

Thanks for asking these questions, Gene. I've been wondering the same thing regarding SACD levels. Like you, I'm hoping there's an easy fix, but I'm becoming more and more inclined to just leave it alone and crank the volume.

Yeah, me too I guess. Maybe others care because they create play lists....and maybe the wildly different db make for issues that way? I don't do play lists. I listen to 1 album at a time.

 

[GOS]

So to add to my confusion (I guess) here is a snapshot of before and after. The first log shows what the .iso file started at. I then went into Foobar settings and told it to convert to flac at +5db. I did that, and converted to Flac and the after shows the progress. Sure doesn't look like +5 to me, but maybe my math skills are lacking? @:

Anyone?

Buehler...buehler...buehler...

 

[HomerJAU]

Thanks for asking these questions, Gene. I've been wondering the same thing regarding SACD levels. Like you, I'm hoping there's an easy fix, but I'm becoming more and more inclined to just leave it alone and crank the volume.

Kodi supports Replaygain tags so maybe you can try it on one of your SACD albums after FLAC conversion and see if that helps on that disc?

 

[JediJoker]

Sure doesn't look like +5 to me, but maybe my math skills are lacking? @:

That's exactly +3dB, so, no, it's not +5.

 

[skherbeck]

Looks like a +6 would be perfect.

 

[GOS]

That's exactly +3dB, so, no, it's not +5.

Well, I knew that JJ - it was actually a sarcastic post. Trying to understand why it didn't alter the db the value that I put in I guess. I figured there were enough folks on here that practice this...well...practice. This side of audio is not very friendly to me and I need all the help I can get.

 

[dr. simple]

Tonight I am a BDA-rippin' fool. I think I counted 35 BDAs in my collection. I'm ripping them first because of all the reports of disc failures (DSOTM and Quadrophenia were the first ones I ripped). These things take a long time! I'm half-way through the Quadio box...

 

[ssully]

OK - I guess adjusting the db can be done (at least for SACD) in Foobar...so, what about DVD-A, etc?

View attachment 28016

That option exists because a DSD recording can exploit as much as 6dB more headroom than PCM. Therefore a converter reduces peak level down 6dB to be safe -- so that there are no overloads in the PCM realm. The foo_input_sacd settings let you bring the level back up to something like its original percent of maximum, but it's trial and error. If you set it too high there will be overloads*. One way to do it is to check the 'Log Overloads' option and use foobar-->View-->Console to view or save the log file as the the tracks are converting. It will show lines that say 'Overload at ....' if the setting is too high. I start at +6 then move down 1dB as needed until it stops overloading. You fairly quickly find out what the loudest track is and can just test with that. Alterantely replagain scan the whole .iso and note the peak level, then use the appropriate boost. This scan may take as long as converting so I don't bother.


For DVDA and BluRay you should'nt need to do any such adjustment. It's PCM already and the level you hear is what was intended. If you want playback of all files or albums in your collection to be more or less 'equally loud' you can scan tracks or albums with replaygain and tell your software player to use those values as it plays back the file. You don't need to change the actual level of the file itself, the rpg values can be added as tags (assuming the files are flac).


*if there are still overloads when no boost (+0db) is applied --as is the case with the 'Thriller' SACD -- it means the disc has was mastered incorrectly or has errors, take your pick.

 

[GOS]

That option exists because a DSD recording can exploit as much as 6dB more headroom than PCM. Therefore a converter reduces peak level down 6dB to be safe -- so that there are no overloads in the PCM realm. The foo_input_sacd settings let you bring the level back up to something like its original percent of maximum, but it's trial and error. If you set it too high there will be overloads*. One way to do it is to check the 'Log Overloads' option and use foobar-->View-->Console to view or save the log file as the the tracks are converting. It will show lines that say 'Overload at ....' if the setting is too high. I start at +6 then move down 1dB as needed until it stops overloading. You fairly quickly find out what the loudest track is and can just test with that.


For DVDA and BluRay you should'nt need to do any such adjustment. It's PCM already and the level you hear is what was intended. If you want playback of all files or albums in your collection to be more or less 'equally loud' you can scan tracks or albums with replaygain and tell your software player to use those values as it plays back the file. You don't need to change the actual level of the file itself, the rpg values can be added as tags (assuming the files are flac).


*if there are still overloads when no boost (+0db) is applied --as is the case with the 'Thriller' SACD -- it means the disc has was mastered incorrectly or has errors, take your pick.

Great post - thanks. This sort of wraps up this conversation for me at least.

 

[jimfisheye]

That option exists because a DSD recording can exploit as much as 6dB more headroom than PCM. Therefore a converter reduces peak level down 6dB to be safe -- so that there are no overloads in the PCM realm. The foo_input_sacd settings let you bring the level back up to something like its original percent of maximum, but it's trial and error. If you set it too high there will be overloads*. One way to do it is to check the 'Log Overloads' option and use foobar-->View-->Console to view or save the log file as the the tracks are converting. It will show lines that say 'Overload at ....' if the setting is too high. I start at +6 then move down 1dB as needed until it stops overloading. You fairly quickly find out what the loudest track is and can just test with that. Alterantely replagain scan the whole .iso and note the peak level, then use the appropriate boost. This scan may take as long as converting so I don't bother.


For DVDA and BluRay you should'nt need to do any such adjustment. It's PCM already and the level you hear is what was intended. If you want playback of all files or albums in your collection to be more or less 'equally loud' you can scan tracks or albums with replaygain and tell your software player to use those values as it plays back the file. You don't need to change the actual level of the file itself, the rpg values can be added as tags (assuming the files are flac).


*if there are still overloads when no boost (+0db) is applied --as is the case with the 'Thriller' SACD -- it means the disc has was mastered incorrectly or has errors, take your pick.

It's not so much 6db more headroom as simply the zero point being in a different spot. (Which doesn't change the discussion. Just a comment in the interest of not spreading rumors about any perceived quality increase in DSD vs. PSC.)

Lowering the gain 6db should be safe. I would agree that if it isn't then there was a mistake made.

If you really want to be thorough though, you can convert the DSD files to 32 bit fp PCM with no attenuation. The floating point means no clipping if the level goes over zero. Then you can precisely lower the gain until you're under zero and save the final file as 24 bit fixed.

If that's too complicated, then go for the safe -6db and convert to 24 bit.

 

[ssully]

It's not so much 6db more headroom as simply the zero point being in a different spot. (Which doesn't change the discussion. Just a comment in the interest of not spreading rumors about any perceived quality increase in DSD vs. PSC.)

Lowering the gain 6db should be safe. I would agree that if it isn't then there was a mistake made.

If you really want to be thorough though, you can convert the DSD files to 32 bit fp PCM with no attenuation. The floating point means no clipping if the level goes over zero. Then you can precisely lower the gain until you're under zero and save the final file as 24 bit fixed.

If that's too complicated, then go for the safe -6db and convert to 24 bit.

(sigh)

Have you actually ever used the foo_input_sacd plugin?

 

[dr. simple]

Wow... I've ripped about 30 SACDs to ISO using my Oppo BDP-103 that I bought a couple weeks ago, and generally they take about 15-20 minutes each. However... Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" is taking FOREVER. I'm at 85% after 64 minutes, currently at a rate of 0.97MB/sec.

Do you think it's a disc on the verge of dying, or... what?

 

[GOS]

Wow... I've ripped about 30 SACDs to ISO using my Oppo BDP-103 that I bought a couple weeks ago, and generally they take about 15-20 minutes each. However... Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" is taking FOREVER. I'm at 85% after 64 minutes, currently at a rate of 0.97MB/sec.

Do you think it's a disc on the verge of dying, or... what?

That's weird, I dunno. That said, seems I recall a disc taking wildly longer than usual. I killed the process and started over, and it seemed to correct itself. Now, I'm not suggesting you abandon, now that it's gone to 85% @:

 

[HomerJAU]

Wow... I've ripped about 30 SACDs to ISO using my Oppo BDP-103 that I bought a couple weeks ago, and generally they take about 15-20 minutes each. However... Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" is taking FOREVER. I'm at 85% after 64 minutes, currently at a rate of 0.97MB/sec.

Do you think it's a disc on the verge of dying, or... what?

I bought a new Samsung 960 NVME SSD drive on Monday and its blazing fast. Any disc based operation like splitting an MKV into chapters is about 5 times faster than my old SSD and that was already 4 times faster than using a Hard Disc. (960 reads at 3200MB/s writes 2100MB/s - hard discs in 100 to 150MB/s range)

So ripping SACDs and ripping BDAs/DVDA/BDVs can easily be done at the same time, effectively halving your conversion times. You can easily convert to FLAC and tag while ripping an SACD and ripping a BDA all at same time.

The 960 connects to the PCIe bus via an adapter not SATA like a connventional hard disc so you need a conventional PC with PCIe slots, or a new PC with NVME slot or a very new laptop that supports NVME (if there are any?)

 

[dr. simple]

That's weird, I dunno. That said, seems I recall a disc taking wildly longer than usual. I killed the process and started over, and it seemed to correct itself. Now, I'm not suggesting you abandon, now that it's gone to 85% @:

Well, as it turns out, the PC must have "fallen asleep", which interrupted the process, so I tried again and got a similar SLOW result. Anyway, 85% was enough to get me everything except the bonus track, so I'm going to leave well enough alone. I'm not big on all the alternate takes, anyway.

 

[dr. simple]

Okay, I am getting REALLY tired of ripping discs! The BDAs were a major pain, and SACDs are close behind.

I think I need to check myself in to an asylum where they'll play beautiful music and forbid me from messing with any gear or seeing any bit rates. Yep. That's what I need!

 

[HomerJAU]

Okay, I am getting REALLY tired of ripping discs! The BDAs were a major pain, and SACDs are close behind.

I think I need to check myself in to an asylum where they'll play beautiful music and forbid me from messing with any gear or seeing any bit rates. Yep. That's what I need!

I started only doing the discs I listened to regularly, then moved to the ones I listened to occasionally. I've only recently finished all my MCH discs by 'having' to do the ones I never listen to (only to satisfy my 'completionist' within)

 

[GOS]

Hehe - I'm just now ripping Queen - The Game DVD-Audio. I've had this disc forever!!

 

[dr. simple]

I started only doing the discs I listened to regularly, then moved to the ones I listened to occasionally. I've only recently finished all my MCH discs by 'having' to do the ones I never listen to (only to satisfy my 'completionist' within)

I'm more along the lines of, "everything else is going to be easy, so I'm gonna get all these done first." Also, I'm finding that converting them all to flac and making them easily accessible changes the way I listen. I'll throw on tracks from albums I've not paid attention to, for whatever reason. I won't deny it's fun, but keep me away from any high bridges!!!

 

[dr. simple]

Hehe - I'm just now ripping Queen - The Game DVD-Audio. I've had this disc forever!!

I like ripping DVDAs more than BDAs and SACDs. The only frustration with DVDAs is when the tag data is wonky because someone with a totally different approach uploaded the data (does anyone really want "multichannel" at the end of every song title???). DVDAs go a lot quicker (for me, anyway) once I get the tag data I want.