Did Sony and Philips make the right call with the cd format being 44.1/16?

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Did Sony and Philips make the right call with the cd format being 44.1/16?

  • Yes and it still holds up perfectly today

    Votes: 31 64.6%
  • It was good for the time however it is dated now

    Votes: 15 31.3%
  • No the cd format shouldn't have even been considered until digital audio was more mature

    Votes: 2 4.2%

  • Total voters
    48
SBM was trying to get round the limitations of some of the earlier ADCs by noise shaping. A different form of noise shaping is what allows DSD to function, as its a single bit conversion.
It was my understanding that Super Bit Mapping was supposed to be a mirror image of the master tapes and I noticed that SONY even incorporated it when they started producing Blu Ray discs where the SBM logo was likewise displayed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super...nds most acutely perceived by human hearing.
 
It was my understanding that Super Bit Mapping was supposed to be a mirror image of the master tapes and I noticed that SONY even incorporated it when they started producing Blu Ray discs where the SBM logo was likewise displayed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bit_Mapping#:~:text=Sony claims that the Super Bit Mapping process,bands most acutely perceived by human hearing.
From what I remember, SBM on Blu-rays applies to video, not audio. It's a different process with the same name.
 
IMO, a greatly under appreciated American Gramophone MLP DVD~A 5.1 [96/24] disc!

Primary


And I disagree that 16 bit/44.1 kHz is adequate in this day and age! Unless they're ALL mastered by JVC's superb XRCD technology ......

I recently purchased a few Blue Note XRCD24 AUDIO WAVE CDs mastered by Alan Yoshida and IMO, they give Analogue Productions Stereo SACDs a run for their money and definitely blow out of the water all those Rudy Van Gelder Blue Note CD remasters of only a scant few years ago, Actually, the BEST I've heard in a digital format from the Blue Note master tapes!
Out of interest how does the XRCD mastering process differ to converting from a hi res source to straight to 44.1/16?
 
HDCD did promise 20 bit resolution from a CD provided your player incorporated an HDCD decoder. And unlike DTS CDs and even MQA, HDCD was incorporated into over 5000 discs!

The ones I do own do sound significantly better than their non HDCD counterparts but like all these technologies fell by the wayside! Again, because they needed a decoder to be effective!

Up until OPPO introduced their swan song 203/205 players, almost all of their players did incorporate HDCD....And quite a few Audio Fidelity 24k Gold CDs also offered HDCD technology .....
The thing with HDCD tho is that I heard from sources that the sound is much worse compared to a normal cd when it isn't being decoded.
 
It was my understanding that Super Bit Mapping was supposed to be a mirror image of the master tapes and I noticed that SONY even incorporated it when they started producing Blu Ray discs where the SBM logo was likewise displayed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bit_Mapping#:~:text=Sony claims that the Super Bit Mapping process,bands most acutely perceived by human hearing.
SBM processing is at the digitisation stage not on playback, it is like a multi-bit DSD process, an improvement on the old (but simple) dithering methods that were used to get a better 'representation' of the analogue signal. When you digitise a signal you will always get quantisation noise (think of it as the difference between the sample and what it is sampling), Noise shaping effectively moves that error out of hearing range to where it is filtered out.
 
The thing with HDCD tho is that I heard from sources that the sound is much worse compared to a normal cd when it isn't being decoded.
The extra resolution is encoded in the digital signal of a normal (red book) CD. IIRC it utilizes the 2 less significant bits of the 16 bit encoding for the extra resolution. When played on a normal CD player, you effectively get 14 bits of resolution from the HDCD, plus 2 bits of noise at an extremely low level (-84dB).
 
Are you forgetting DTS Entertainment which, IMO, revolutionized 5.1 sound from a CD as an alternative to Dolby Digital 5.1 which was the codec at the time for DVD flicks [which later added DTS}

Problem is you needed a decoder which eventually become pretty standard in CD players at the time!

I still credit DTS Entertainment for the launch of higher res SACD/DVD~A audio in the early 00's!

They did get the ball rolling FIRST!
I haven't forgotten DTS, IMHO that was the second missed opportunity. Sadly the DTS (CD) format died along with Brad Miller. I remember rushing out to buy the Millenium DTS decoder shortly after learning about it. I still have it and it still sounds fantastic. DTS seems a bit less impressive now through the Oppo but that is likely because the newer lossless formats sound better still.

Yes not long afterward we got SACD/DVD-A but in predictable fashion both formats were quickly abandoned. SACD did survive primarily in Japan mainly as a stereo audiophile sound delivery system. Now we do have a bit of a resurgence with SACD. DVD-A is pretty much dead but we have an even better format in Blu-ray!
 
I haven't forgotten DTS, IMHO that was the second missed opportunity. Sadly the DTS (CD) format died along with Brad Miller. I remember rushing out to buy the Millenium DTS decoder shortly after learning about it. I still have it and it still sounds fantastic. DTS seems a bit less impressive now through the Oppo but that is likely because the newer lossless formats sound better still.

Yes not long afterward we got SACD/DVD-A but in predictable fashion both formats were quickly abandoned. SACD did survive primarily in Japan mainly as a stereo audiophile sound delivery system. Now we do have a bit of a resurgence with SACD. DVD-A is pretty much dead but we have an even better format in Blu-ray!
Doesn't blu ray audio have a mode where it can operate like a cd?

Also have SDE ever considered releasing SACD versions of their surround series?
 
Doesn't blu ray audio have a mode where it can operate like a cd?
In short, no!

Also have SDE ever considered releasing SACD versions of their surround series?
No, as SACD is too niche a format nowadays.

Plus, SACD does not have the capacity to fit all the bonus material that often appears on the SDE Blu-ray audio disc releases...
 
Doesn't blu ray audio have a mode where it can operate like a cd?
It is possible to create Blu-ray audio disc's with a 'black' video stream and chapters along with any audio stream (or streams) supported by the Blu-ray disc specification, such as LPCM (encoded at a min of 48.0kHz at 16-bits). These discs will play immediately after being inserted within the player and do not require a display.

Needless to say, such discs can't be played on a dedicated CD player or DVD player. Plus they're rather expensive to create and in my opinion not worth the effort.
 
It is possible to create Blu-ray audio disc's with a 'black' video stream and chapters along with any audio stream (or streams) supported by the Blu-ray disc specification, such as LPCM (encoded at a min of 48.0kHz at 16-bits). These discs will play immediately after being inserted within the player and do not require a display.

Needless to say, such discs can't be played on a dedicated CD player or DVD player. Plus they're rather expensive to create and in my opinion not worth the effort.
Wait hang on a sec. BD audio doesn't surport 44.1k!?

Hopefully converting 44.1k to 48k is lossless as that sounds like a bit of a headache for 44.1k sources.
 
CDs can sound excellent. I won’t say I’m one of those golden-ears audiophiles, but of the people I hang around with, my hearing is more critical than any of them. I know a lot of the limitations of my ears, though, so it’s likely that there are people who can hear things I can’t.

That said, for a consumer medium, it’s brilliant. The goal was to fit Beethoven’s 9th symphony on a single disc in fidelity that the vast majority of people couldn’t hear artifacts, and they succeeded.

I attended a lecture by someone with credentials (apparently had a copy of the red book) who said that the spec had a four-channel version, but it never was used. Interestingly, he had never heard of the earlier quadraphonic recording formats. Remarkable bubbles some of us live in.

I’m pretty sure the increased channels would have resulted in decreased time, but I don’t have hard data.

The technical,limitations of the day would have prevented any more bits on a disc of that size, although a few more minutes were squeezed in later. The red lasers of the day required a minimum area for the pits, so higher data density would have to wait for lasers further up the spectrum or multi-layer discs.

Although quad was pretty much a dead-and-buried format when the CD came out, I would have jumped on quad CDs had they been available. But then, I didn’t buy a CD player for at least a year after the format came out. I’d given up being an early adopter. I’m still using “legacy” equipment to play obsolete media.
I remember reading an article about the ability to put 4 channels, at 16/44.1, on a CD, and it did say doing so would cut playing time to about half. I would have liked to have heard one demonstrated,, but I don't think a player was ever built that could play that type of quad CD. I imagine they assumed the idea of four channel music was basically dead.
 
I think the problem with modern CDs is the compressed mastering that most albums and remasters have nowadays. Otherwise they should be sounding even better than they ever did when first released thanks to advances in all round in digital audio technology.

Although I find the lack of mono audio in the redbook audio standard pretty questionable really would have benefited for audio books. But then again I could see greedy record companies abusing this spec for compilations all because they could save money printing to a single CD in mono as apposed to two in Stereo so ultimately that saved the end consumer.

Sadly as far as major label releases go, this is a problem with modern vinyl and digital downloads also, because typically everything is made from one master. I spoke recently with one of the big names in mastering (who recently opened their own mastering house when their mentor, one of the biggest names of all time, retired) who said "virtually all" of the work they do that goes to vinyl is "the same mastering as the digital"
 
Doesn't blu ray audio have a mode where it can operate like a cd?

Long answer...yes it does, but it's a profile not a mode.

What you're thinking of was Profile 3.0 players, thankfully it never came to fruition because it might have meant existing players (1.0 and 2.0 profiles) likely wouldn't have been able to be upgraded via firmware and thus you'd have to buy another player. Of course for QQ members, what's another player? lol

Profile 1.0 - basic playback, Samsung BD-P1000
Profile 1.1 - added "Bonus View" (secondary picture decoding for muxed PIP)
Profile 2.0 - BD-Live (connectivity, download additional content, etc)
Profile 3.0 - Blu-ray Disc audio playback (no menu, no video content, no BD-Java support) - skipped
Profile 5.0 - 3D Blu-ray
 
There was an especially frustrating period where major labels encouraged a volume war mastered CD release and then a vinyl release. Circa 2000s. They would refuse to release digitally in 24 bit and free of the hard mastering and instead release a vinyl version that might be cut from the unmolested 24 bit master. Or it might not. Buying that vinyl and sometimes getting treated to an exact copy of the volume war CD was just infuriating!

Sometimes it was the real thing but it was still annoying to have to settle for an analog generational copy of the 24 bit digital master. And pay dearly for it!
 
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