ELP Emerson Lake & Palmer Cataloge in 5.1 Surround

[Robert van Diggele]

Does anyone know what the hardware was that was used to UPMIX Devil's Triangle on King Crimson's In The Wake Of Poseidon?

Penteo was used

Several threads on QQ,
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...pmix-on-new-quot-In-the-Wake-of-Poseidon-quot
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ing-Penteo-to-create-5.1-for-ITWOP&highlight=

 

[fredblue]

Some of us have "Center channel" turned off in the settings of our DVD-A/SACD players, which then allow 5.1 mixes to be played through Quadraphonic amplifiers. The "Center channel" then gets downmixed into the front Left and Right channels. It seems to work, although the other option is to run the "Center channel" into the aux inputs of one's TV speakers.

using the TV as a centre speaker would work nicely for some 5.1 mixes where little to nothing is going on in the centre channel and its a good workaround if you play more quad material than 5.1..

..but as we all know there are a fair few modern 5.1 mixes with quite a lot of low-end bass in the centre channel.. even vocal only centre mixes, like the Eltons need a fair bit of mid & bass to round them out or the vocals sound tinny..

and i don't feel the majority of TV speakers would cut it.. without resorting to bass management, which is suck-ily implemented on some AVRs and universal disc players.

 

[tarkusnj]

using the TV as a centre speaker would work nicely for some 5.1 mixes where little to nothing is going on in the centre channel and its a good workaround if you play more quad material than 5.1..

..but as we all know there are a fair few modern 5.1 mixes with quite a lot of low-end bass in the centre channel.. even vocal only centre mixes, like the Eltons need a fair bit of mid & bass to round them out or the vocals sound tinny..

and i don't feel the majority of TV speakers would cut it.. without resorting to bass management, which is suck-ily implemented on some AVRs and universal disc players.

My system was set up out of necessity, with my TV to the right of my room-and the fireplace!. I have 5 full range speakers for music surround and a center channel speaker over the tv. When I play movies, I have a speaker switch to configure my full ranges that enables my full range CC on my fireplace hearth to become the left channel and turn on the speaker over the tv and turn off my far left full range speaker. When it is surround music, I switch it back and disable the tv CC. The lesson here is don't buy a house with a fireplace in the middle of the listening room!

 

[strat54]

My EL&P and Tarkus discs shipped Aug.28 from Amazon UK arrived yesterday Sep.12, both unwrapped and covers slightly damaged so they don't close squarely
Amazon packing wasn't very tight, just folded cardboard and the discs could shift inside. The discs were locked securely in their holders. Sony did a good job with case design except missing the shrink wrap.
Hoping for better on the extra two Tarkus shipment.

 

[cupboy]

Looks like Amazon USA will have stock in just a few days so maybe all this overseas ordering wasn't all that worthwhile. I still don't have mine.

And you can be sure the USA ones will have shrinkwrap.

So what is it with the UK and their anti-shrink policy? Is it so the items can be played in the store?

 

[tarkusnj]

Looks like Amazon USA will have stock in just a few days so maybe all this overseas ordering wasn't all that worthwhile. I still don't have mine.

And you can be sure the USA ones will have shrinkwrap.

So what is it with the UK and their anti-shrink policy? Is it so the items can be played in the store?

Someone told me that these discs shipped to the US where not in shrink wrap for sending overseas for some reason. The discs I received directly from the UK were NOT shrink wrapped while the same discs I received from Amazon US from the UK WERE shrink wrapped with a sticker on them that said "Made In England"
So maybe after they get through customs and get to the US, then they shrink wrap them?

 

[Lisa Burning Shed]

Just for clarification on the shrinkwrap issue - the first batches we received came as Tarkus wrapped, ELP unwrapped.

Now in the next pressing ELP is arriving wrapped.

At a guess either Sony didn't specify a wrap on the first run of ELP or the factory missed it.

It's nothing to do with customs etc. Sometimes it's just human error somewhere down the production line.

Thanks,

Lisa

 

[tarkusnj]

Just for clarification on the shrinkwrap issue - the first batches we received came as Tarkus wrapped, ELP unwrapped.

Now in the next pressing ELP is arriving wrapped.

At a guess either Sony didn't specify a wrap on the first run of ELP or the factory missed it.

It's nothing to do with customs etc. Sometimes it's just human error somewhere down the production line.

Thanks,

Lisa

Have you received any of the Tarkus sets with Unknown Ballad removed?

 

[neil wilkes]

No!
Max 8 channels uncompressed 48 kHz LPCM are possible with DVD-Video. Read the specs, e.g. http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/Book_B/Audio.html!

But - and this is important - it was never implemented on any players anywhere, any time.
This was because it took up 6.144Mbps of the total available bitrate of 9.8Mbps, leaving no room for video, so scrapped.
Whilst it is technically possible, no player in the world would read it.
This is an old story, covered dozens of times and yet it still will not go away!!
You would have theoretically been able to do 16/48 5.1 in LPCM. Never, ever implemented. The specs state that the only mandatory support is 2 channel at 16/48.
Everything above that is, and always was, optional.

 

[neil wilkes]

Have you received any of the Tarkus sets with Unknown Ballad removed?

For the umpteenth time - THERE IS NO SUCH FRACKIN' DISC!!!!!

 

[tarkusnj]

For the umpteenth time - THERE IS NO SUCH FRACKIN' DISC!!!!!

There is no such Tarkus disc right now but Unknown Ballad is supposed to be removed in future pressings.

 

[leevitalone1]

My EL&P and Tarkus discs shipped Aug.28 from Amazon UK arrived yesterday Sep.12, both unwrapped and covers slightly damaged so they don't close squarely
Amazon packing wasn't very tight, just folded cardboard and the discs could shift inside. The discs were locked securely in their holders. Sony did a good job with case design except missing the shrink wrap.
Hoping for better on the extra two Tarkus shipment.

I got one from UK on 9/12. It was wrapped and the box was torn at the bottom but the set was perfect. It was packed well.

 

[drSeehas]

But - and this is important - it was never implemented on any players anywhere, any time.

One member in the other thread
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...VD-A-Semantics&p=158843&viewfull=1#post158843
and
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...VD-A-Semantics&p=159120&viewfull=1#post159120
wrote his OPPO played it.

This was because it took up 6.144Mbps of the total available bitrate of 9.8Mbps, leaving no room for video, ...

With 3.6 Mbps left there is no room for video? More than enough for displaying the lyrics.
How many DVD-Audio come with Video in the Audio part?

... no player in the world would read it.

See OPPO above.

... You would have theoretically been able to do 16/48 5.1 in LPCM.

Hm, my theory says up to 20bit.

... The specs state that the only mandatory support is 2 channel at 16/48.
Everything above that is, and always was, optional.

Thank you very much for this clarification.

 

[0tto]

my order hasn't been dispatched due to "out of stock" but i'm not upset at all.
eventually someday it will arrive. seems like sales going very well, which gives hope
for the following similar reissues. to some degree it's reminds me Rush "Moving Pictures".
UMG have considered it as succes but unfortunatelly odious corporate greed ruined such
good start, when they went for the next batch as a pricy boxes with pretty poorly
(perhaps due to hurry) done DVDAs.
let's hope Sony wouldn't do same mistake.

 

[fredblue]

my order hasn't been dispatched due to "out of stock" but i'm not upset at all.
eventually someday it will arrive. seems like sales going very well, which gives hope
for the following similar reissues. to some degree it's reminds me Rush "Moving Pictures".
UMG have considered it as succes but unfortunatelly odious corporate greed ruined such
good start, when they went for the next batch as a pricy boxes with pretty poorly
(perhaps due to hurry) done DVDAs.
let's hope Sony wouldn't do same mistake.

weren't missing multitracks also partly to blame for there being no more 5.1 Rush releases?

 

[fredblue]

Just for clarification on the shrinkwrap issue - the first batches we received came as Tarkus wrapped, ELP unwrapped.

Now in the next pressing ELP is arriving wrapped.

At a guess either Sony didn't specify a wrap on the first run of ELP or the factory missed it.

It's nothing to do with customs etc. Sometimes it's just human error somewhere down the production line.

Thanks,

Lisa

funnily enough my ELP was sealed in "crinkly"/"rustle-y" cellophane, not shrinkwrapped in stretchy gladwrap.. and my Tarkus was in a sealed clear polythene CD bag. that's how HMV Oxford Street must have got them.. bizarrely nothing like your inventory at Burning Shed, Lisa..!

in the words of The Who.. "I Can't Explain"..!!

 

[cupboy]

Got my shipment from Amazon Germany. Both sealed.

 

[quad57]

For the umpteenth time - THERE IS NO SUCH FRACKIN' DISC!!!!!

WELL WHY THE FRACK IS THAT TRACK ON THE DISC ANYWAY, IT SHOULD BE PULLED!
That track is not either elp or Keith singing as the booklet says. Any true elp fan will know it's not them, how could this happen? I loved Steve's work on Crimson and Tull but these 2 elp discs could have been alot better. Perhaps if it was done by a person who has a true passion of the group and the music. Steve's version is good but the Rhino surround version of Lucky Man blows the new version away. Maybe John Kellogg who did the 5.1 mix is a true fan of the music.

 

[Bill Sherbon]

WELL WHY THE FRACK IS THAT TRACK ON THE DISC ANYWAY, IT SHOULD BE PULLED!
That track is not either elp or Keith singing as the booklet says. Any true elp fan will know it's not them, how could this happen? I loved Steve's work on Crimson and Tull but these 2 elp discs could have been alot better. Perhaps if it was done by a person who has a true passion of the group and the music. Steve's version is good but the Rhino surround version of Lucky Man blows the new version away. Maybe John Kellogg who did the 5.1 mix is a true fan of the music.

Being someone who is perhaps a more casual fan, the presence of this track does not cause me such angst. But if I ever do develop such 'true passion' my DVD-Audio player has a really nifty feature that allows me to "skip" to the next track.

 

[Steven Wilson]

WELL WHY THE FRACK IS THAT TRACK ON THE DISC ANYWAY, IT SHOULD BE PULLED!
That track is not either elp or Keith singing as the booklet says. Any true elp fan will know it's not them, how could this happen? I loved Steve's work on Crimson and Tull but these 2 elp discs could have been alot better. Perhaps if it was done by a person who has a true passion of the group and the music. Steve's version is good but the Rhino surround version of Lucky Man blows the new version away. Maybe John Kellogg who did the 5.1 mix is a true fan of the music.

Chris Welch, who wrote the sleeve notes you refer to, spent a lot of the early 70's hanging out with the group and I think you can say he is both a true ELP fan, and something of an authority on them - he wrote about the song as being sung by Keith, I bow to his judgment on this, I personally don't know what Keith singing sounds like - when Keith was quizzed on it recently he was unable to confirm it was him, but neither was he sure it was not him. One thing that is for sure however, is that the piece was indeed recorded during the Tarkus sessions, as it appears on the the same tape reel (reel 323) between two sections of the title track of Tarkus - it therefore doesn't seem very likely that they stopped an ELP session mid way through, and different musicians wandered it to record a song for a completely different project on ELP's multitrack tape. Possible, but hugely unlikely. I certainly would not have mixed it and included it in my mixes present to the band for approval if the evidence did not point to it being an out-take from the sessions - the 3 members had approximately a year to listen to and veto its inclusion - my job was simply to mix everything that was found on the reels I was given. Greg thinks it is his composition, so I suspect it is him playing the piano, and sung by one of the other members, or perhaps a friend of theirs who happened to be in the studio, perhaps even Eddie Offord, who knows? I suspect the truth is that no-one really knows, and that includes "true fans" - the only people that could really confirm its origins simply don't remember.

I haven't heard the Rhino mix of Lucky Man - I'm sure it's very good. If I was more of a fan of the music (or I should say *even* more, because I really like the album a lot) it wouldn't have changed by mix in any way that I can think of - it's pretty faithful to the original, so I suspect you simply prefer the decisions made on where to put things in the surround spectrum, which is fair enough.

SW