Fish - Vigil in a Wilderness of Mirrors and Internal Exiles to be mixed in Atmos (4CD+BluRay Deluxe Sets Shipping July 29, 2024)

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Received mine today (Germany) from the EU store, also well-packaged in a cardboard box.

Any first impressions? I just heard Vigil in 5.1, and while it is not bad, I am not really impressed. Very frontal with a lot of reverb... relatively low in volume (which might be good), missing some punch, especially at the highly emotional moments.

Hey! Your forum name is suspiciously close to mine. Kudos on the avatar though.
Calvin & Hobbes are the greatest!

Say it ain't so on a lackluster mix. AM&AB were on a winning streak with "13th" & "Weltschmerz" Sorry to hear that you are not liking the mix.
I hope it is a fault with your system and not the mix 😝

I know the stereo mixes have been remixed and our slightly changed but they sound good (via the free downloads & listening on Apple for the last week - not in Atmos).

“Internal” has a new running order that is kind of throwing me off but also sounds ‘fresher’.

Being in the States, it will be a week or so before it hits my doorstep.

SIGNED THE REAL Splnter7 (aka Greg) that better not be your first name too.
 
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suspiciously close to mine
Haha! And that even though you were here almost 20 years before me :) I use that name (and variations, often enough it is taken) since ca. 1998 though. Nice to see a fellow splinter! :hi

I will do some more rotations, but am quite confident that it is not my system :cool: or at least the comparison to other mixes still stands then, maybe they all sound strange here 🙃 I had high hopes after Weltschmerz and the Marillion mixes from AM&AB, but I am not sure they are on the same level here. Maybe it is the material they had in their hands, but I doubt that that was worse than let's say Fugazi... Just listening to the stereo remix from Calum Malcolm on CD, I maybe like that better. Will have to do some A/B listening with the original mix though to get a better impression. It is definitvely louder/more compressed than I thought it should be (see screenshot, Vigil title track, remix on top, original CD below).

The Internal Exile surround mix even seemed more frontal to me, but I was distracted while listening. Well, let's let it sink in... I am keen on hearing your first impressions.

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Fish, posted this today:

I reckoned a dual photo was in order today for the call out to Fish on Friday after my wonderful wife packaged and posted out 670 units across the formats today bringing her tally since Wednesday to just short of 2000. I think you'll agree it's a phenomenal piece of work and a chilled savvy of gargantuan proprtions is due this lady at the end of a frantic week that saw our stress level meters peaking and bouncing off the dials at times.
I can't even go into it here as it was coming at us from all sides and I was apologising to some people for my shortness and intensity as at a couple of points this last week I felt I was at the barricades, close to being overwhelmed , out of ammo and armed only with a blunt penknife. It seemed we were being continually let down by people who weren't either following up or through on things and leaving us in the lurch. It was all not happening here and up on the croft and Angus our builder and I were propping each other up as it seemed everything was either stalling or unravelling due to circumstances outwith our control or from negative third party decisions. A very tough week indeed.
It's still up there in the red zone but calmed down a little and some deep breaths were needed together with quite a lot of gritty teethed forgiveness. The important thing was nobody died and it's now the weekend so we can take a very slight break tonight before we ramp up tomorrow into the next big mail out preparation on Sunday. Monday is going to be Yorkie central and I want to hear the spine break on the mail order monster at the end of that shift.
Anyway it's Fish on Friday tonight at 6pm UK time and I'll be on air with toons, tales, banter and updates to hopefully entertain you for a wee while . This call out is a bit late for obvious reasons but I'll be there in the next 45 mins or so . Off to the Co op for 'vittles' , it's been a sair fecht and I need some music and wine
catch you all in a wee bit
Fish
 
Internal Exile arrived yesterday (after receiving emails) but I've not had anything about Vigil... Has anyone received theirs?
 
In the same post, he states that they hope to have most preorders in the post by midweek.

He is getting a wee bit peeved at the “where is my” emails. If they are trying to focus on the dispatches, I am not sure why they don’t try to post an automated response. I would think he should have a store email address and a private business address for non-merchandise business.

I am also unsure why he thinks a Facebook post is gonna help. It’s not like he hasn’t said stuff is late getting to him (as usual) and it’s only he and Simone in the shipping department / living room and still people are emailing without doing just a bit looking.

Heck - This thread is pretty thorough with updates and even at only six pages, there questions posted that were already answered. 🙄
 
On Fish’s Live webcast on Friday, you got the sense that he had a tough week. Both physically an mentally.

He is 66 and lugging boxes of product around, prepping for a tour and moving to a Croft.

He seems quite proud of these latest releases but it was sad to hear him say that he isn’t looking forward to the final tour as much. Maybe it is all the grief he got for adding an extra date on the end of the tour. A bunch of punters started crying that they bought tickets for final show only to find out it wasn’t the final show. I kind of get it but grow up and stop slagging a guy who has been hanging on by thread for three decades.

I’ll leave it with a plus:
He did describe the tour merch.
Sounds like both ‘Vigil’ and ‘Internal’ will have a themed shirt along with a hoodie with his logo on the back. He was debating between zip and pull-over.

I think he said he was going to post the images next week on FB but that means we will see it in two weeks 🤣

Sounds like he will be selling on his merchandise page before he closes it down next April. He went on a rant about how some of the venues (specifically in the UK) are gouging artists on fees for selling in the venue.
 
I hope it is a fault with your system and not the mix 😝
I have spent some more time with the mixes now. I am still not impressed, but I think I can put more facts to it now. Needless to say that the remix improves in clarity and detail over the original mix, which was very low volume for once (on my CD, it is not even normalized) and sometimes muddy in comparison, but which had more focus on the vocals. I find that that is often an issue with remixes - they try to bring out all the unheard details, and then those details distract from the vocals. To a certain extent this is the case here, although it is tolerable. I do not care much for obviously changed elements, like the new guitar sound on A View From A Hill intro, or added percussion elements in the low part in the middle of Cliché, or the changed running order; but it does not bother me much as well. It is not so obvious why they changed those though, maybe there is something in the book about it.

I took a closer look at Vigil (the album). First, the stereo mix by Calum Malcolm and the Surorund mix bei AB&AM are two completely different pairs of shoes regarding compression/loudness, but I think they share a lot of sonic characteristics and (for me) strange mixing decisions. Throughout the mix, I feel the high frequencies are boosted a little too much. This gives the mix a lot of clarity the original mix was lacking, but often enough hi-hats and ride pings are way too much in your face, kind of distracting (and I am a drummer, I like hearing drum details!). Listen to the beginning of The Company or Cliché to get a good impression of that. It sounds to me like this mix was done by somebody who already lost a good part of upper frequency hearing... did Uncle Fish push the upper registers too far? ;-) The overall mix gets a sharpness from that that I do not like so much.

Then the vocals... as said before, they get a little shoved aside by the new shiny details, but even more so as a lot of very noticeable reverb was put to them. I sometimes feel that the mix fails in bringing forward the best of the characteristics of Fish's voice, like when you choose the "wrong" microphone for a specific type of voice. Maybe it is also the high frequency push that takes the warmth from the big guy. What they put on reverb to the vocals they took from the drums, btw. The old mix had a lot of reverb on drums (as usual at that time), today we prefer a much more direct drum sound, and the remix reflects that. The reverb-y drum sound made the original mix sound thin at times, but on the other hand it made room for the bass guitar, which is now pretty much burried in the mix. Overall, there is more bass frequencies in the mix, so drums sound fuller, bass sounds warmer, but you can hear less of the individual bass notes now, which is a shame, because I think a lot of it was played on a fretless bass, which is interesting to listen to.

What really sucks is the dynamic range of the stereo mix. I thought the 2000s were behind us, but look for example at Big Wedge - remix on top, normalized original mix below.
1722855031314.png

This is a loud song anyway and the picture is more here to illustrate the point, but this kind of dynamic compression takes the air out of "heroic" moments like the second refrain from The Company, the reverbed drum intro to the grand finale of Clichè, or the full band rocking in View From A Hill ("You were a dancer and a chancer..."), as marked by the arrow in this screenshot: normalized original mix at the bottom, remix on top reduced by 6 dB to get close to similar perceived loudness.

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The snare sound suffers from the compression, the punch is often lost. To me the stereo remix is already at the point of tiring my ears.

What did AB&AM make out of that for their surround mix? Something quite different dynamically. This is View From A Hill - Front Left and Front Right at the top, then Center, then the stereo remix. The channels from the surriund mix are normalized (or more precisely pushed by 9 dB) by the way, because the volume of the surround mix is kept so low. There is definitely more dynamics in the surround mix, although not as much as in the original mix, but maybe that is not the reference for today.

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Different things puzzle me about the surround mix. Here you see the full album in 5.1:

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First of all, the LFE channel is simply a very low pass filtered version of the overall mix. You can hear rumble and some bass drum there, but no carefully crafted LFE. I am wondering if they don't have all the individual tracks anymore - if you only want bass drum on the LFE, then why not only put bass drum there? But it is so low on volume that I would consider this more of a 5.0 mix anyway. The center is mostly front left and right with the vocals pushed forward. The rear channels somehwat copy what is on front channels minus the vocals and in lower volume, and then put something on top of that (keys, rhythm guitar, bagpipes). Sometimes it is fun, but I feel they missed the chance for a clearer separation, and in loud scenes it gets a little muddy. Yes, the synth orchestra in the finale of Cliché is there, but it so low on volume, why not blow the listener (emotionally) away from the back here? Same with A Gentleman's Excuse Me. The Voyeur on the other hand does exactly that with synths and guitar highlights, and even backing vocals in the refrain. So it is a little of a mixed bag. Sometimes you can use the rear channels as a karaoke track, because the full band except the vocals is in there.

So all in all this is not a bad surround mix, maybe not even lackluster, but seems to me like a safe play for all those without full range speakers in the back, and missing alot of opportunities. There is a number of individual things I would have expected differently, especially when you look at the audience. This is not some charting band also pushing out a quick spatial mix on the side so that Apple Music has something to offer. This was crafted deliberately as a final gift to the fans - and not so much of a gift when you look at the price tag.

Does anyone know if the album was recorded on tape originally? The remix of Vigil (the song) is about half a second longer than the original mix, so I guess that is tape speed deviation (similar pattern for the other songs).
 
After reading the comment from @Neil Palfreyman on the 13th Star Surround Mix, I think it might be the same with these releases... a short check with the Internal Exile Atmos mix seems to confirm it, but I have to spend more time with it...

Phew I was wondering the same thing as the Atmos was way better on the 13th Star than the DD 5.1 which is crazy not sure why they did it that way.

I don't have these 2 releases yet.

Did you try listening to the Atmos to see how it sounded downmixed to 5.1?

peter
 
Phew I was wondering the same thing as the Atmos was way better on the 13th Star than the DD 5.1 which is crazy not sure why they did it that way.

I don't have these 2 releases yet.

Did you try listening to the Atmos to see how it sounded downmixed to 5.1?

peter
Internal Exile received today & based on 1 listen of the Atmos (downmixed to 5.1) & the 5.1 it's very much the same as 13th Star, Atmos makes it sound like fresh new songs, the 5.1 being muddy. Trouble is that Credo & Internal Exile (the song) didn't downmix & mixed out Keys & Guitars, for me at least........ will need more careful listening as was working when playing this back.
 
Fish’s wife Simone is a packaging machine!
Looks like she made incredible progress with the preorders. Now up to the big man to stack them in the yorkies

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I received one of those packages today. :)

Perfectly packaged and the soft touch of the cardboard of the deluxe boxes seems better to me than the previous Weltschmerz and 13th * boxes. The internal sleeve for the discs is perfect, with the same soft cardboard feel and you can remove the discs without difficulty, not like others where you have to press the plastic button and almost break the disc to remove it.

Now, I have to wait for a few days to listen to it at home with Dolby Atmos. In the meantime, I'll be reading the books in the boxes.
 
…this kind of dynamic compression takes the air out of "heroic" moments…
This has been an issue for me with all the Bradfield/Mackintosh projects released thus far, and I hear it on the surround mixes as well as the stereo. Big emotional moments, like when Steve Rothery's guitar solos come roaring in on "Chelsea Monday" or "Warm Wet Circles," really lack power compared to the original versions. The intro to "Assassing" used to build up to an orgasmic crescendo, but the reduced dynamics in the 5.1 mix severely diminishes the excitement factor. It's a shame because all the releases from Weltschmerz onward have been great from a surround POV.
 
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