Rip Blu-ray

[LuvMyQuad]

I ripped my Blu-ray Audio disc using MakeMKV's 'back-up' option... There's no weird separate bed/atmos tracks here!

I think @par4ken 's issue is actually because DVDAE sometimes misrepresents or outright misses the disc contents. I can remember a handful of times it did that to me. I haven't used it in years now. No DVD-As to rip. For blurays and DVDs I use MKV and Audiomuxer/MMH, depending what the content is.

 

[HomerJAU]

@par4ken Maybe you are seeing the AC3 5.1 sub-stream that’s always included in the Atmos stream for backward compatibility with old systems. Rippers like MakeMKV show that sub-stream so users can rip them.

 

[par4ken]

I ripped my Blu-ray Audio disc using MakeMKV's 'back-up' option... There's no weird separate bed/atmos tracks here!

I just pulled it up and it shows differently this time! I shows eight "titles" instead of two. Title 5 gives the TrueHD option as well as DTS. So I would assume that the Bed is all that you get by ripping the DTS. That all I want anyway. If I select True HD it also shows eight channels, I'll rip it and see what I get this time.

Edit: I got confused again it was Soft Cell that I was ripping not Shakespears Sister! I will try again and report back!

 

[HomerJAU]

So I would assume that the Bed is all that you get by ripping the DTS.

You get the whichever DTS stream you select (DTS-HDMA or DTS). Each audio stream is independent.

If I select True HD it also shows eight channels

Atmos is an extension to TrueHD. As I said in a previous post many tools show Atmos TrueHD as 7.1 but it actually contains all the encoded channels/objects. Get MediaInfo to show all the codec data.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I just pulled it up and it shows differently this time! I shows eight "titles" instead of two. Title 5 gives the TrueHD option as well as DTS. So I would assume that the Bed is all that you get by ripping the DTS. That all I want anyway. If I select True HD it also shows eight channels, I'll rip it and see what I get this time.

Edit: I got confused again it was Soft Cell that I was ripping not Shakespears Sister! I will try again and report back!

Indeed... The Soft Cell BRD-A does not contain any DTS encoded audio!

General
ID                                       : 0 (0x0)
Complete name                            : V:\BDMV\STREAM\00010.m2ts
Format                                   : BDAV
Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
File size                                : 9.57 GiB
Duration                                 : 52 min 36 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 26.0 Mb/s
Maximum Overall bit rate                 : 48.0 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS

Video
ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : [email protected]
Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 4 frames
Codec ID                                 : 27
Duration                                 : 52 min 36 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 22.1 Mb/s
Nominal bit rate                         : 15.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.443
Time code of first frame                 : 01:00:00:00
Stream size                              : 8.10 GiB (85%)

Audio #1
ID                                       : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : MLP FBA AC-3 16-ch
Format/Info                              : Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name                          : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Muxing mode                              : Stream extension
Codec ID                                 : 131
Duration                                 : 52 min 36 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 640 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 6 894 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 8 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Stream size                              : 241 MiB (2%)
Service kind                             : Complete Main
Number of dynamic objects                : 13
Bed channel count                        : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration                : LFE

Audio #2
ID                                       : 4353 (0x1101)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Muxing mode                              : Blu-ray
Codec ID                                 : 128
Duration                                 : 52 min 35 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 2 304 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Stream size                              : 867 MiB (9%)

General
ID                                       : 0 (0x0)
Complete name                            : V:\BDMV\STREAM\00000.m2ts
Format                                   : BDAV
Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
File size                                : 8.48 GiB
Duration                                 : 52 min 15 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 23.2 Mb/s
Maximum Overall bit rate                 : 48.0 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS

Video
ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : [email protected]
Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 4 frames
Codec ID                                 : 27
Duration                                 : 52 min 15 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 21.7 Mb/s
Nominal bit rate                         : 15.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 24.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.435
Time code of first frame                 : 01:00:00:00
Stream size                              : 7.91 GiB (93%)

Audio
ID                                       : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : MLP FBA AC-3 16-ch
Format/Info                              : Meridian Lossless Packing FBA with 16-channel presentation
Commercial name                          : Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Atmos
Muxing mode                              : Stream extension
Codec ID                                 : 131
Duration                                 : 52 min 15 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 640 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 6 819 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 8 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Stream size                              : 239 MiB (3%)
Service kind                             : Complete Main
Number of dynamic objects                : 13
Bed channel count                        : 1 channel
Bed channel configuration                : LFE

Cheers

 

[par4ken]

Atmos is an extension to TrueHD. As I said in a previous post many tools show Atmos TrueHD as 7.1 but it actually contains all the encoded channels/objects. Get MediaInfo to show all the codec data.

Yes but once converted to wav I'm sure that all that extra information is lost.

What I'm now seeing is (ignoring the short tiles which are obviously just the menu music)
Title 2 2Ch PCM 48K (2 streams) (1:10:02)
Title 3 TrueHD 6 channel 48K and LPCM 2CH 48K (52:35)
Title 5 TrueHD 6 channel 48K (52:13)
Title 6 LPCM 2CH 48K four tracks only (15:56)
Title 7 LPCM 2CH 96K (7 seconds)

The first time (like I said) it showed only Title 1 and Title 2 Both shown as TrueHD 6 Channel. They were slightly different lengths. The Title2 rip sounded like it would be the height channels. If that is not possible I have no explanation for it! Now I can't prove it as I deleted the files and have even checked the recycle bin for them. There were eight channels (too many for height only?) and I didn't bother check how they were coded. So I really don't know what weird thing DVDAE actually did there.

More confusion, DVDAE reports 6CH but when you rip (next page) it reports 8 channels.

 

[par4ken]

Indeed... The Soft Cell BRD-A does not contain any DTS encoded audio!

I got confused again it was Soft Cell that I was ripping not Shakespears Sister (which has DTS), as you say Soft Cell doesn't! I will try again and report back!

See above post.

 

[HomerJAU]

Yes but once converted to wav I'm sure that all that extra information is lost.

wav? I’m talking about the original streams on the disc. You can’t ‘convert’ Atmos to wav without an Atmos decoder. All the non-Dolby apps convert the Atmos ‘core’ only (6 or 8 channels depending on the encode) to pcm losing all spatial metadata.

Why are you converting to wav? If you want to hear Atmos as a true spatial mix from a file you need to copy the stream to a file container that supports Atmos: Matroska MKV, MKA or MPEG MP4 or M4A using one of the apps that can do that (MMH, ffmpeg, MKVToolNix etc.).

Play these files via hdmi Passthrough to an AVR with Atmos decoder and you get spatial sound in all its glory!

 

[par4ken]

wav? I’m talking about the original streams on the disc. You can’t ‘convert’ Atmos to wav without an Atmos decoder. All the non-Dolby apps convert the Atmos ‘core’ only (6 or 8 channels depending on the encode) to pcm losing all spatial metadata.

Why are you converting to wav? If you want to hear Atmos as a true spatial mix from a file you need to copy the stream to a file container that supports Atmos: Matroska MKV, MKA or MPEG MP4 or M4A using one of the apps that can do that (MMH, ffmpeg, MKVToolNix etc.).

Play these files via hdmi Passthrough to an AVR with Atmos decoder and you get spatial sound in all its glory!

I don't want to listen to Atmos just 5.1/4.0.

 

[HomerJAU]

If you’ve got an AVR with TrueHD decoder you can still listen to an Atmos stream in 4.0 or 5.1 and the file will play in 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 if you ever upgrade your system to Atmos in the future (i.e You won’t have to re-rip your discs, which can easily die through disc rot, as BD discs do, based on feedback all over the web and my personal experience).

Next time you ask these questions you should be mentioning the DISC codecs not the files you’ve ripped and converted. You’ve had multiple members try to help you here about ripping BDs and you are looking at ripped and converted files not the original disc info!!

 

[ssully]

wav? I’m talking about the original streams on the disc. You can’t ‘convert’ Atmos to wav without an Atmos decoder. All the non-Dolby apps convert the Atmos ‘core’ only (6 or 8 channels depending on the encode) to pcm losing all spatial metadata.

Why are you converting to wav? If you want to hear Atmos as a true spatial mix from a file you need to copy the stream to a file container that supports Atmos: Matroska MKV, MKA or MPEG MP4 or M4A using one of the apps that can do that (MMH, ffmpeg, MKVToolNix etc.).

Play these files via hdmi Passthrough to an AVR with Atmos decoder and you get spatial sound in all its glory!

If you do this -- send the ripped Atmos bitstream file to a decoder in your AVR -- and your setup is 5.1 or 7.1 (no height speakers), what you get as output is the 'bed', correct?

And if the bed is 7.1, and your setup is 5.1, your AVR will downmix?

 

[HomerJAU]

If you do this -- send the ripped Atmos bitstream file to a decoder in your AVR -- and your setup is 5.1 or 7.1 (no height speakers), what you get as output is the 'bed', correct?

And if the bed is 7.1, and your setup is 5.1, your AVR will downmix?

Yes or if you have only 4 speakers it will downmix to quad.

 

[par4ken]

You’ve had multiple members try to help you here about ripping BDs and you are looking at ripped and converted files not the original disc info

It should have been very obvious that I was ripping discs to files! In the beginning I was talking about ripping the Quadio's, no mention of Atmos!

While that operation should have been pretty straight forward. MakeMKV's free key had just expired (now we have the new one). If I used it more I would have just bought it. In the meantime I simply used AnyDVDHD in conjunction with DVDAE. My problems arose from the fact that the Quadio's are authored with the following channel assignment L,R,SL,SR. That turned out to be the root of my troubles.

In the past my rip's always produced files with the following channel assignment L,R.Bl,BR or L,R,C,Lfe,BL,RR. Those files always played right for me. Talk of needing a blank C and Lfe for compatibility was a bit of a red herring IMHO. Adding digital zero blank channels to make 4.0 into 5.0 did work fine playing the same (as properly coded 4.0) , but were not really needed (by me for compatibility) once the channel assignment was changed/corrected.

I might have caught it sooner but when saved as flac the file reports as 4 channel with no channel assignment given. By saving as as wav first I can easily click on properties and see what the channel assignment is. If incorrect I can change it using the Matrix Mixer in Foobar. Once all is good I convert to flac.

Talk of Atmos only entered the scene when I talked about ripping Soft Cell. I thought that was clear as well that all I wanted were 4.0 or 5.1 files. I use Foobar to combine BL,BR and SL,SR into just BL and BR.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

.
Talk of needing a blank C and Lfe for compatibility was a bit of a red herring IMHO. Adding digital zero blank channels to make 4.0 into 5.0 did work fine playing the same (as properly coded 4.0) , but were not really needed (by me for compatibility) once the channel assignment was changed/corrected.

So how do you know that 5 years in the future you will have the same equipment? Electronics break down. Why wouldn't you want to insure compatibility?

 

[HomerJAU]

I only got involved seeing the ridiculous comment that you had ‘the Atmos bed and heights in different Titles’. ‘Titles’ is a term used to describe the separation of DVD and BD disc content. Hence we all assumed you were looking at the disc content.

I was trying to clarify what’s going on for others that may read this thread. You are making incorrect statements that may be assumed as ‘fact’. This is why I mentioned keeking Atmos as its original unmodified stream for future use. It didn’t apply to you (because you will never upgrade to an Atmos system), but it applies to most readers of this thread.

The channel mask (channel names) are created by whatever program did the conversion from the original BD stream. It’s been pretty arbitrary what the rear channels are labeled. It’s not copied from the source disc content if it needs conversion. Changing channel masks does not change the files’s channel order. Many programs output based on the order, ignoring the channel mask (channel names).

You don’t need to mix the surround channels of a 7.1 FLAC file into new 5.1 file (single pair of surrounds) to hear all the original surround content. A 7.1 FLAC is remixed into the 5.1 during playback. Try it.

Talk of needing a blank C and Lfe for compatibility was a bit of a red herring IMHO. Adding digital zero blank channels to make 4.0 into 5.0 did work fine playing the same (as properly coded 4.0)

Adding silent C and/or LFE is not a red herring. It works (even you said that). “Properly coded 4.0” depends on the user’s system. As I said earlier another user needs Ls, Rs to play quad correctly while you need BL, BR. Adding a silent C works for everyone and has been the common accepted solution here on QQ for years. Red herring NOT!

BTW: MMH has a tool to recursively find all 4 channel files from a root folder in all sub-folders to automatically: add a silent C, silent C and LFE, or change the channel mask to L, R, Ls, Rs (added recently ). It takes about 5 seconds per album folder.

 

[ssully]

It should have been very obvious that I was ripping discs to files! In the beginning I was talking about ripping the Quadio's, no mention of Atmos!

I think the imported part is that you ripped *and converted*

When you convert (i.e., save) ripped atmos data to a wav file (or wav-->flac) you lose Atmos information. Whereas if you rip/save the Atmos source as a raw bitstream file , and use an HDMI connection, your AVR can still decode it as full Atmos...or as any downmixed version that your system requires.

 

[par4ken]

You don’t need to mix the surround channels of a 7.1 FLAC file into new 5.1 file (single pair of surrounds) to hear all the original surround content. A 7.1 FLAC is remixed into the 5.1 during playback. Try it.

I do to play on my computer, at least without custom mapping the Foobar outputs. I would rather tinker with the rips and have everything work the way I want with less tinkering with my system.

If I was ever need Atmos I would simply re-rip from the Blu-Ray. It might be an idea to copy the disc saving it to a backup hard drive should anything ever happen to the Blu-ray (disc rot) but I'm not overly concerned about that. I'm sure that those discs will outlive me.

The only exception that I make is SCAD , which I like to save as .dsf and then let Foobar convert on the fly, then I can still play the .dsf file natively via the Oppo BDP-103 (does not work with the BDP-95).

I think the imported part is that you ripped *and converted*

A meaningless statement when talking about the Quadio's. Yes I wasn't clear to some of you about converting from Atmos to a flac
or wav file. In my mind that step was obvious. I do not use an AVR, I do not need Atmos, I use HDMI for video only!

Edit: I suppose that it is a matter of semantics. I would not call creating a backup such as an iso of a CD to be "ripping" it. My definition involves the conversion to something (more useful) like wav, flac or mp3. Sorry if that definition was not clear or if it's technically incorrect.

 

[par4ken]

So how do you know that 5 years in the future you will have the same equipment? Electronics break down. Why wouldn't you want to insure compatibility?

I've had much the same equipment for years and years. I add to my system(s) and seldom replace. I repair and even build my own equipment. I feel that I have insured compatibility. I would never purchase anything that was not compatible with my own needs.

There is always a glut of great used equipment out there!

 

[ssully]

A meaningless statement when talking about the Quadio's.

except, you were also talking about the Soft Cell BluRay Atmos release, which is not a Quadio, and HomerJAU was posting about Atmos in response to your claims about that. I wasn't talking about Quadios either. If you 'convert' Atmos, what I wrote applies.

 

[par4ken]

except, you were also talking about the Soft Cell BluRay Atmos release,

Yes, I apologise for my error about that, I was just reporting my observations. Something funky happened with DVDAE, I could have sworn that the second "Title" must contain the Atmos "tops", I'm at a loss to explain what it actually was then, it was not the same as the other "Title", sounding to me like nothing really important to the mix. So I just assumed.

Revisiting the disc it shows something like 7 titles, with multiple streams. I can't now duplicate whatever happened the first time!

There is still a learning curve about Atmos, all I know about it is what I've read in posts here.

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