Thompson Twins - Into The Gap blu ray audio #29 in the SDE series

[himey]

Hmmm...

I know we're told that an Atmos mix folds down to 5.1 but it in my opinion it never sounds as good as a dedicated 5.1 mix!

Even the ones directly from the Atmos session? This is what he is implying.

 

[himey]

Thanks for the heads-up about this, @bookofsaturdays.

If anyone's curious, Paul's comment is under the Into The Gap unboxing video on the SDE page:

"This wasn’t a dedicated 5.1 so just to stress the Atmos in 5.1 is the same as what is ‘missing’."

So, as someone who doesn't have the means or interest to expand into Atmos, the whole reason I've bought the SDE releases that I have is to support the continued creation of dedicated 5.1 mixes. And I've always assumed the 5.1s on what I've bought are dedicated, because the advertising has given no reason to believe otherwise.

I wouldn't have bought Into The Gap if I'd known the 5.1 was just a folddown. And this makes me wonder if I've been similarly misled about any of the previous releases I've bought or the upcoming stuff I've pre-ordered.

(As far as what I have -- I assume the Steven Wilson 5.1 mixes on The Hurting and The Lexicon Of Love are dedicated, since he's traditionally started with 5.1 as a basis for his Atmos mixing. But, since it turns out the David Kosten 5.1 of Into The Gap is just a folddown, how about his 5.1 of No Parlez? How about Bob Clearmountain's 5.1s on the upcoming Simple Minds Blu-Rays?)

I'm really really rethinking my support of SDE in the wake of all this. And don't get me wrong -- I'm happy for those who are approaching these releases completely from an Atmos standpoint. But, that's not me. And if there's not clarity and transparency about these 5.1 mixes, then I can't take any further chances with their product.

And I just need to throw in a hearty agreement with @SeeMoreDigital: an Atmos folddown will never be the same as a dedicated 5.1.

I have spoken many times, as have others here, that the 5.1 mixes, that include an Atmos mix, are usually from the Atmos session, and not dedicated mixes. I don't think assuming something is the same as being mislead. With that said, there should definitely be files made available for download of the song in question, in a 5.1 FLAC file. It would be the least they could do, and if they think out of the box, it could be done very inexpensivly.

 

[Monkish]

The way I see it, an "approved" 5.1 can be a fold down but at least it has been (or should have been...) checked for how it translates on a 5.1 system, as opposed to having the end consumer handle that aspect.

Yeah, this is what I'm now wondering, and maybe I'm just way off on my perceptions and terminology -- if the Into The Gap 5.1 isn't a dedicated mix, did David Kosten himself at least go through the Atmos derivation and tweak balances and placements and such in order to optimize the mix for a 5.1 listening experience?

In other words, in a situation like this, will the 5.1 be different than just listening to the Atmos folded down? Is there any human element involved?

 

[himey]

Yeah, this is what I'm now wondering, and maybe I'm just way off on my perceptions and terminology -- if the Into The Gap 5.1 isn't a dedicated mix, did David Kosten himself at least go through the Atmos derivation and tweak balances and placements and such in order to optimize the mix for a 5.1 listening experience?

In other words, in a situation like this, will the 5.1 be different than just listening to the Atmos folded down? Is there any human element involved?

I bet this Atmos mix, even presented in 5.1, is better than many dedicated 5.1 mixes.

 

[Bobby Martini]

Hmmm...

I know we're told that an Atmos mix folds down to 5.1 but it in my opinion it never sounds as good as a dedicated 5.1 mix!

I can confirm the folded down Atmos sounds better than the dedicated 5.1 on this occasion, but I agree that's not always the case.

 

[colsky]

Hmmm...

I know we're told that an Atmos mix folds down to 5.1 but it in my opinion it never sounds as good as a dedicated 5.1 mix!

It sometimes does sound as good but often doesn't. Example A - Tull's Christmas Album - the Atmos mix played on 5.1 sounds as good, if not better, than the dedicated 5.1 mix. Example B - Tears For Fears The Hurting - the dedicated 5.1 sounds excellent, but the Atmos mix played on 5.1 doesn't sound good at all.

I haven't ordered the Thompson Twins (not a fan at all), but I'm a bit confused about the explanation here. Some of the SDE releases list a 5.1 separately from the Atmos (e.g. The Hurting), so I have always assumed that these are dedicated mixes. Some of their releases (e.g. Elton John's Diamonds) only list an Atmos in the description. This is the description for that one:

Audio streams summary:

• Dolby Atmos (48 tracks) 48 kHz / 24 bit
• Hi-Res Stereo (51 tracks) 48 kHz / 24 bit

If you do not have an Atmos set-up just yet, the Dolby Atmos mixes will ‘fold down’ to 5.1 for the next best surround sound experience.

Note the last paragraph.

The SDE description for the Thompson Twins lists the 5.1 mix separately, so its fair to assume a separate mix rather than a fold down. Not having an Atmos setup myself, I'm always wary of buying a disc if it only has Atmos and not a dedicated 5.1, in case its like The Hurting disc.

 

[himey]

The SDE description for the Thompson Twins lists the 5.1 mix separately, so its fair to assume a separate mix rather than a fold down.

You didn't know until today that most 5.1 mixes that include an Atmos mix, are outputted from the Atmos session?

 

[colsky]

You didn't know until today that most 5.1 mixes that include an Atmos mix, are outputted from the Atmos session?

You mean I didn't know until today that when a disc, or a disc description on SDE, lists the 5.1 on a different line to the Atmos, that this doesn't actually mean a 5.1 mix that was done independently to the Atmos mix? No, I didn't know that. I had assumed that a mixer would do the 5.1 with 5.1 in mind, and also do an Atmos mix with an Atmos array of speakers in mind. Are you saying that when a disc has a 5.1 and an Atmos mix, that the 5.1 is usually just a fold down of the Atmos?

 

[himey]

You mean I didn't know until today that when a disc, or a disc description on SDE, lists the 5.1 on a different line to the Atmos, that this doesn't actually mean a 5.1 mix that was done independently to the Atmos mix? No, I didn't know that. I had assumed that a mixer would do the 5.1 with 5.1 in mind, and also do an Atmos mix with an Atmos array of speakers in mind. Are you saying that when a disc has a 5.1 and an Atmos mix, that the 5.1 is usually just a fold down of the Atmos?

Dolby would say it uses objects, and because of that, it is flexible in its design and can handle any number of speaker arrays. I don't think they use the term fold down. The same software that outputs Atmos, also outputs 5.1. It is up to the mix engineer to ensure both sound good. He doesn't get paid for two mixes, so my guess is he isn't going to treat them equally.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

If it is the case that the 5.1 DTS-HD MA 96/24 stream is simply a fold-down/down-mix of the Atmos 48/24 stream then I feel more than a little deceived, especially as the 5.1 stream is in a different audio format and higher sample-rate than the Atmos stream!

Moving forward, SDE should not bother to include 5.1 mixes if they are not dedicated 5.1 mixes.

 

[himey]

Moving forward, SDE should not bother to include 5.1 mixes if they are not dedicated 5.1 mixes.

Can a DAW ensure that a proper 5.1 mix is extracted from an Atmos workflow more consistently than the multitude of different receivers? Other than space restrictions, I don't think there is any reason not to include it, and more than one reason to do so. People who rip Atmos to 5.1 will certainly find a 5.1 track more convenient.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Can a DAW ensure that a proper 5.1 mix is extracted from an Atmos workflow more consistently than the multitude of different receivers? Other than space restrictions, I don't think there is any reason not to include it, and more than one reason to do so. People who rip Atmos to 5.1 will certainly find a 5.1 track more convenient.

In the past I have re-encoded Atmos to 5.1 PCM and compared it to a dedicated 5.1 mix and always preferred the dedicated 5.1 mix.

In my opinion if SDE are going to continue to offer 5.1 fold-down/down-mixes from the Atmos sources they should make it clear that this is the case and not offer them in a different audio format and sample-rate, ie: keep them Dolby TrueHD at 48/24.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

With the whole discussion about Dolby TrueHD and its metadata in another thread I'm surprised a separate 5.1 stream was offered as a tailored downmix of the Atmos (not that I mind). With TrueHD metadata, shouldn't you just be able to customize the downmix parameters so the Atmos mix sounds great on Atmos systems and 5.1 systems? But hey, Blu-ray has a lot of space, and the separate stream approach was probably easier.

 

[kenm]

IMO, I don't feel the issue reported is worth them spending money and resources to correct. I prefer Paul continues with new releases and it not be a hindrance for us enjoying additional ones. There is an alternative provided with the fold down.

Hopefully this is a learning experience and never happens again.

Agree.

 

[srbjab]

I think whether a 5.1 "fold down" from an Atmos mix sounds as good as a dedicated 5.1 mix is still very much an open question. From everything I've read, the fold down process can be controlled/affected by many mixing decisions and settings that can be largely automated or manually tweaked by the mixing engineer. Obviously, the responsible approach would be to audition the fold down mix and make adjustments if the result is substandard or audibly worse than the Atmos mix. However, going through that process may involve nearly or as much work as just doing a dedicated 5.1 mix in the first place. Depending on what was contracted for, any given mixing engineer may not be inclined to be that meticulous. They most certainly wouldn't audition a 5.1 fold down if a dedicated 5.1 mix was actually done.

For me, I would rarely listen to a stereo, 5.1 or 7.1 mix if an Atmos mix was available - unless there was something significantly wrong with the Atmos mix. However, I think it's far from proven that any 5.1 fold down is fully equivalent to a dedicated 5.1 mix, and probably shouldn't be presented that way. While this error is unlikely to be a problem for me, I can certainly understand why buyers that are 5.1 capable only would be concerned and would like some sort of correction to be offered. Any workaround that involves changing system settings to manipulate the Atmos mix for a single track will negatively impact playback convenience, if nothing else.

 

[andyp]

I've taken ATMOS channels and down mixed them to 5.1 and it certainly doesn't sound the same as the mix that is on the disc in 5.1

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've taken ATMOS channels and down mixed them to 5.1 and it certainly doesn't sound the same as the mix that is on the disc in 5.1

I did the same yesterday evening (using Eac3To) and agree with you...

 

[Bobby Martini]

I've taken ATMOS channels and down mixed them to 5.1 and it certainly doesn't sound the same as the mix that is on the disc in 5.1

I don't have an Atmos setup, and my system, I would wager, is very humble to most people on here, but the Atmos mix does indeed sound different and superior to my ageing old ears.

Personally, I'm more than happy with this disc. I don't feel it needs a disc swap. The atmos mix sounds great on my little system, and I have plenty of other things in my life and world that need more attention paying to them !!!

 

[dr. simple]

I received a shipping notice email on Wednesday, but evidently Langley must have taken “Hold Me Now” literally.

 

[privateuniverse]

I received a shipping notice email on Wednesday, but evidently Langley must have taken “Hold Me Now” literally.

Makes you wonder what would happen if there's ever an SDE of Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up"!